Tuesday, April 28, 2009

Voting Tuesday: Detroit and Lehigh

Presbytery2009 Vote2001 Vote
Detroit141-92 (replace)48%-52% (keep)
Lehigh60-46 (replace)45%-55% (keep)

Lehigh has sent out a special letter about the 2 min per side, until one side runs out of speakers or 50 minutes. Their agenda shows a 5:00 starting time for debate.

Detroit has an interesting agenda:

4:40 Description of the process and expectations.  Moderator (15)
4:55 The Constitutional history and consequences (15) Stated Clerk
5:10 Presentation of the cases  (20)
Pro: (5) The Rev Mary Austin
Con: (5) The Rev. Johnie Bennett
Pro: (5) Elder John Lovegren  (Detroit, Jefferson Avenue)
Con (5) Elder Francile Anderson (Waterford, Community)
5:30 Recess to Kaleidoscope Bible Study Groups
5:40 Convene Small group discussion  (Kaleidoscope Bible Study) (60)
6:40-7:40 p.m. (Special order of the day) WE SHARE GOD’S BOUNTY 
Dinner & Fellowship—Table and room reservations available for small groups
7:40 Small groups reconvene (30)
“I intend to vote (yes/no) because _______.”
“I am not sure how I will vote because ______.”
“Other “I” statements or “pass.”

8:10 Reconvene in Plenary (Special Order of the Day)
8:10 D. Coordinating Cabinet:  Rev. Sue Ellis Melrose
Debate on whether we shall approve Amendment B.  (limited to 2 minutes) (30)
8:40 Vote by ballot

Translate Liberal Speak

"The big story here is that many traditionally conservative areas of the country voted to accept gay clergy and lay officers in the church," said Tricia Dykers Koenig, national organizer for the Covenant Network of Presbyterians.


We have driven out those who disagree with us, by voting on this, over and over and over again. Sometimes they left one family at at a time, sometimes a whole church. Many times we where able to steal their property as well. We made up the rules as we went along, since we have no higher power than ourselves. We will vote again, break the rules, bend the rules and harass and call names those who speak out against us.

More Hanging Chads for PCUSA

All three sites that I use to gather voting information; Presbyweb, Yes08, and Layman as not tracking abstain votes of the delegates. I notice that many leaders of organizations have a tendency to ignore abstain. As an amateur parliamentarian, this make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Since most votes are determined by majority of those voting, the abstains officially count as NO votes. SO, in a close vote, not counting abstains, could illegally alter the vote. This depends on the rules of each Presbytery. Nationally, the Abstains mean No, as it is majority of all Presbyteries, whether they vote or not.

One blog happened to mention that the Presbytery of San Francisco vote was 167-177-4. This changed %No from 51.45% to 52.01% or 167-181. I hope each and every clerk (Presbytery, Session, ...) knows better and it is only the web sites that are sloppy in their reporting.

By my count 6 Presbyteries are in the 2% difference bracket. Could any of these votes be invalid?

Saturday, April 25, 2009

Saturday Results - IT IS DONE 69-88-1

  • Northern Plains: 21-33: NO
  • Boise: 25-34: NO
  • De Cristos: 59-48: YES
  • Sierra Blanca: 23-30 NO

News Coverage:

Tuesday, April 21, 2009

When is a web page not a web page?

Executive Summary: When it does not follow Standards. (non-proprietary coding).

Details: Sometimes website work by accident. Web programmers/admins, etc. have gotten lazy or complacent, and still thinks the web revolves around Microsoft's Internet Explorer(IE). The latest figures show IE market penetration falling as fast as PCUSA membership. These figures are from March 2009 and represent Global usage. FF has about double the market share in Europe.

  • 67% Microsoft's Internet Explorer(IE)
  • 22% Mozilla's Firefox (FF)
  •  8% Apple's Safari
  •  1% Google Chrome - Beta
  •  2% Other

What web pages have irritated me enough to write this blog entry?

Saturday, April 4, 2009

Break Even

  • San Jose: 84-81 (2001: 85-75)
  • South Louisiana: 42-55 (2001: 51-71)
  • Total 65-82

All-in-All, no change, but the "pro-equality" group can not afford to break even at this stage.

Next Up:

  • Apr 17: Alaska
  • Apr 21: National Capital, Salem, San Francisco, Wabash Valley
  • Apr 25: Boise, de Cristo, Northern Plains, Sierra Blanca
  • Apr 28: Detroit, Lehigh
IF the "pro-equality" group "wins", will they give equal treatment to those churches who do not want a LGBT Pastor, Elder, or Deacon? Or will they be required to have a "balance"? That is liberal code for quotas.

Presbylaw temporary site.

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If you have comments, corrections, or updates to this website please email me: PRESBYLAW webmaster or leave a comment.

If you wish to make a church announcement of a vote or lawsuit, I will need to verify. You either need to send it via a email that I can publicly verify belongs to the church, or point to a website with a news story, or official church website. Contacting the layman may be a better route.


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Denomination NameParentLocationSizeYear
United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. - UPCUSA(N) PUSA & UPCNA New York City8,909/2,342,4411958-1983
Presbyterian Church in United States (Confederate) - PCUS(S) Presbyterian Church in United States Atlanta, Ga.4,250/814,9311861-1983
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) PC(U.S.A) UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) Louisville, Kentucky11,596/3,122,213June 10, 1983
Evangelical Presbyterian Church EPC UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) Livonia, MI67/19,000 (1982)1980/1981
Presbyterian Church of America PCA PCUS(S) Lawrenceville, GA260/41,232May 18, 1973
Orthodox Presbyterian Church Presbyterian U.S.A. Willow Grove, PA 300/20,417 1936
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church Associate Presbytery/Reformed Presbytery Greenville, SC 250/40,392 1782



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BlogTruth in Love NetworkA group of Presbyterian elders who are concerned with the direction of the PC(USA).
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