Organize the web stories, info on the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) troubles: Property Ownership, Church Withdrawals, Ordination Standards, Hierarchical vs. Connectional.
Most churches in the area have canceled services. I do not understand why other churches have not. They are endangering their staff, that must show up. Is the Church legally responsible if their staff gets hurt?
Jesus said: "The Sabbath was made for man, Not man for the sabbath."
What is your opinion? What are you church rules?
Congregation fights in court to keep church
Members of the Orakei Presbyterian Church, sited on prime Auckland real estate and valued at $2.5 million, have engaged a lawyer and last week complained to police about "patronising and condescending" steps taken by the church's regional body to close the doors on the predominantly Samoan congregation
Session clerk: ‘We didn’t die. We were murdered.’
Seventh Presbyterian Church, Cincinnati, Ohio, Rev. Ian Lamont
The vote of 156 for and 138 against the ordination came after hours of contentious debate at the First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley. It is possible that the decision to ordain Lisa Larges, a deacon at Noe Valley Ministry Presbyterian Church, could be appealed.
From The SF Presbytery website:We know that many will be coming specifically for the evening report of the COM, but we sincerely hope that all of you will come for other equally important reports that will be presented before the dinner break.Her Statement of faith, etc. in in the COM pt2 Report
News Sources:
If the leadership votes to close the church, the church congregation must forfeit the property to the Presbytery but all church contents belong to the church congregation
Church members held a vote in October to close its doors.
ED: "The contents belong to the congregation" is a new one on me
The name of Mark Tammen, an attorney for the Presbyterian Church (USA)’s Office of the General Assembly, is on 398 of the documents, suggesting the denomination’s heavy involvement in this case.
Fresno Bee Story: 3 Valley Presbyterian churches part ways
"The relationships we share with these three congregations, as brothers and sisters in Christ, are more important than property," said the Rev. Rick Irish, interim leader of the Presbytery of San Joaquin, which governs Valley congregations within Presbyterian Church (USA). "Therefore, we didn't make property an issue."
On Sunday, Trinity Presbyterian Church in Clovis held a service to complete the split and join the more conservative Evangelical Presbyterian Church, based in Litonia, Mich.
Two other congregations, First Presbyterian Church in downtown Fresno and Fowler Presbyterian Church, held similar services Oct. 18.
Executive Summary
I will gather them up and merge them with my version and put them on-line. It will take about 1 - 2 weeks. I also have newer software to put up on my sourceforge geoctools page
I think everyone that voted yes, will have the integrity to vote yes on removing the property clause.
UPDATE: Presbyweb has their vote count reversed!
The remnants of the congregation that split from the Presbyterian Church (USA) two years ago dropped its appeal and surrendered the property to the Presbytery of Genesee Valley on May 19.
An interesting quote:
with politics filling a void left by a spiritual vacuum among churches dealing with modernity
UPDATED Layman Story: “We’re going to dismiss them,” John Rickard, the executive for the Blackhawk Presbytery, told The Layman Online Friday. “We’re not trying to beat up on each other.”
... Also, in case anyone should ask, when the presbytery votes on an amendment, the question is decided by a simple majority vote. No absentee or proxy votes are allowed.
I know this is NOT the case for the overall vote, abstains count as NO. According to the PCUSA Book of Order. So I would like to know the source of this instruction.
| 2009 | 2001 | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Presbytery | Remove | F/C | Abs | Remove | F/C | Abs |
| Middle Tennessee | 95 | 139 | 95 | 118 | ||
| Northern Waters | 52 | 11 | 41 | 30 | ||
Neither one seems to have the agenda for public consumption. Northern Waters hides it behind a login.
I believe the real cause of the financial troubles is the over use of debt in the corporate world. Companies should reinvest in themselves instead of getting loans.
As it is now, If you don't have a large debt, someone with big pockets, will swoop in and do a LBO (leverage buyout). Carl Icahn and Boone Pickens were noted for this tactic, as corporate raiders.
I am looking to buy a replacement for my macrame cross. It is white on the front/back and black along the edges. The knots are "square" and it is on a black string that is a fused joint. All of the string appears to be nylon. No beads, no metal. I THINK I bought it 20 years ago at a D.C. Talk Concert at a Carmen Family Conference. Click on the pictures to see it in full scale.
| Presbytery | 2009 Vote | 2001 Vote |
|---|---|---|
| Detroit | 141-92 (replace) | 48%-52% (keep) |
| Lehigh | 60-46 (replace) | 45%-55% (keep) |
Lehigh has sent out a special letter about the 2 min per side, until one side runs out of speakers or 50 minutes. Their agenda shows a 5:00 starting time for debate.
Detroit has an interesting agenda:
CONSIDERATION OF AMENDMENT B 4:40 Description of the process and expectations. Moderator (15) 4:55 The Constitutional history and consequences (15) Stated Clerk 5:10 Presentation of the cases (20) Pro: (5) The Rev Mary Austin Con: (5) The Rev. Johnie Bennett Pro: (5) Elder John Lovegren (Detroit, Jefferson Avenue) Con (5) Elder Francile Anderson (Waterford, Community) 5:30 Recess to Kaleidoscope Bible Study Groups 5:40 Convene Small group discussion (Kaleidoscope Bible Study) (60) 6:40-7:40 p.m. (Special order of the day) WE SHARE GOD’S BOUNTY Dinner & Fellowship—Table and room reservations available for small groups 7:40 Small groups reconvene (30) “I intend to vote (yes/no) because _______.” “I am not sure how I will vote because ______.” “Other “I” statements or “pass.” 8:10 Reconvene in Plenary (Special Order of the Day) 8:10 D. Coordinating Cabinet: Rev. Sue Ellis Melrose Debate on whether we shall approve Amendment B. (limited to 2 minutes) (30) 8:40 Vote by ballot
Translation:
We have driven out those who disagree with us, by voting on this, over and over and over again. Sometimes they left one family at at a time, sometimes a whole church. Many times we where able to steal their property as well. We made up the rules as we went along, since we have no higher power than ourselves. We will vote again, break the rules, bend the rules and harass and call names those who speak out against us.
One blog happened to mention that the Presbytery of San Francisco vote was 167-177-4. This changed %No from 51.45% to 52.01% or 167-181. I hope each and every clerk (Presbytery, Session, ...) knows better and it is only the web sites that are sloppy in their reporting.
By my count 6 Presbyteries are in the 2% difference bracket. Could any of these votes be invalid?
News Coverage:
Details: Sometimes website work by accident. Web programmers/admins, etc. have gotten lazy or complacent, and still thinks the web revolves around Microsoft's Internet Explorer(IE). The latest figures show IE market penetration falling as fast as PCUSA membership. These figures are from March 2009 and represent Global usage. FF has about double the market share in Europe.
What web pages have irritated me enough to write this blog entry?
All-in-All, no change, but the "pro-equality" group can not afford to break even at this stage.
Next Up:
Anyone who is persuaded by the last minute debate, has not done their homework or is so wishy-washy, that they should not be a delegate. Therefore, 20 years of debate should be enough for everyone.
Of course, If I wanted to follow their pattern, I would name the fight as "pro-sin" vs "pro-bible"
They try to blame the economy and then decline in membership much later in the article for past troubles. The truth is people are voting with their feet, either individually, or as a group.
Compare that to this story from Tulsa World Newspaper: Tulsa Baptists shake it up - Name changes, no big office, many committees disbanded
Here is the original report on a different blog: yeson08b. When you look at the site, you notice the typical political trick, Use the right name to slander your opponents instead of logic. They use the phrase "anti–equality" to describe those who want to keep the fidelity/chastity clause. I sure the other side could use "pro-sin" to describe those who want to change 08B.
I have included data for PCUSA, Presbyteries, Synods, Churches, States, Counties.
From the To DO List:
On the morning of Tuesday, February 17, the Wabash Valley Presbytery voted to approve an agreement allowing Covenant Presbyterian Church to be dismissed from the Presbyterian Church (USA) and to affiliate with the Evangelical Presbyterian Church.
One-hundred-fifteen delegates at the Presbytery meeting approved the agreement, while two delegates voted against it.
The official dismissal date has not been announced.
Dismissal agreements also were approved for two other Indiana churches; Frankfort First Presbyterian and Nappanee First Presbyterian.
We thank God for His continued faithfulness!
I think I have my map software completely working. If Satan does not insert any more bugs into the source. The big problem I have, is working out what the Presbytery boundaries are. I used the location of churches to help as a starting place. I have only the graphics on the PCUSA website to eye-ball the boundaries.
HELP WANTED: Does anyone have a better description of each presbytery's counties? Some of the Presbytery websites actually list the counties by name.
My software will generate mostly KML files, that can be imported into Google to draw pretty polygons and placemarks. Once I have all of the Presbyteries with the proper counties, I will release the data, with a free license for others to use.
To make these files, I have the following data files
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