Organize the web stories, info on the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) troubles: Property Ownership, Church Withdrawals, Ordination Standards, Hierarchical vs. Connectional.
Wednesday, April 2, 2008
Separation, Texas-Style
The Reformed Pastor Blog has an detailed and enlightening article on Heritage Presbyterian Church in Houston. It re-enforces my opinion that many of the AC's trying to deal with departing churches are drive by Greed and Idol Worship. They want money for property they did not pay for, care for, or use. They think of PC(USA) as a god to be worshiped instead of a creation of man.
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Presbylaw temporary site.
Tracking the PC USA troubles.
Other Presbylaw Pages
Other Websites Covering Property
| Layman Online: | |
| Legal Resource Databank | |
| Chart: Churches leaving the PCUSA | |
| Archives on property issues within the PCUSA | |
| PCUSA: Legal Strategy #1 | |
| PCUSA: Presbyteries Process #2 | |
| PCUSA: Secret Document #3 |
Voting on PCUSA Admendments: Sources
Presbylaw temporary site.
Announcement Policy
If you have comments, corrections, or updates to this website please email me: PRESBYLAW webmaster or leave a comment.
If you wish to make a church announcement of a vote or lawsuit, I will need to verify. You either need to send it via a email that I can publicly verify belongs to the church, or point to a website with a news story, or official church website. Contacting the layman may be a better route.
LINKS
| Type | Name | Description |
|---|---|---|
| FEED | PCUSA List Feed | Atom Feed of Blog Posts |
| PRESBYLAW webmaster | Comments, corrections, updates | |
| NEWS | PRESBYWEB: Viewpoint | PCUSA Property Trust History Disputed By Jeffrey C. Francis |
| Memorial Park on Seperation | Bulletin Insert for May 6th | |
| Web | Kirk's Legal Docs (pdfs) | Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK |
| PCUSA Articles of Incorporation | Churches can't be a member of the PCUSA according to its own articles of incorporation | |
| Legal Strategy #1 | PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave | |
| Presbyteries Process #2 | PC(USA)'s Process for churches wanting to leave | |
| Doc | Secret Document #3 | News about a third secret document |
| Process | Administrative Review Process from the Synod of the Northeast | |
| Presbytery Of New Covenant | Process For Addressing Churches Seeking To Withdraw From PC(USA) | |
| Wabash Valley Presbytery | Separatist Task Force | |
| Doc | PC(USA): Constitutional Musings: Note 12 | Responding Pastorally to Troubled Churches |
| Doc | PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 02 | Dissent and Defiance |
| Doc | PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 03 | Administrative Commission |
| PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 11 | Church Property | |
| Doc | PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 17 | Schism |
| Doc | PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 19 | Implementing the Trust Clause for the Unity of the Church |
| Web | Presbyterian Outlook | Statement about resources prepared by the Constitutional Services Department and the Office of Legal Services at the General Assembly level of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) |
| Web | Stated Clerk, GAC chief urge churches not to defect from PC(USA) | We are better together in Christ's Unity |
| Type | Name | Description |
PC(USA) News Service
Presbyterian Google News
IRD Presbyterian News
The Christian Post
Denominations
| Denomination Name | Parent | Location | Size | Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. - UPCUSA(N) | PUSA & UPCNA | New York City | 8,909/2,342,441 | 1958-1983 |
| Presbyterian Church in United States (Confederate) - PCUS(S) | Presbyterian Church in United States | Atlanta, Ga. | 4,250/814,931 | 1861-1983 |
| Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) PC(U.S.A) | UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) | Louisville, Kentucky | 11,596/3,122,213 | June 10, 1983 |
| Evangelical Presbyterian Church EPC | UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) | Livonia, MI | 67/19,000 (1982) | 1980/1981 |
| Presbyterian Church of America PCA | PCUS(S) | Lawrenceville, GA | 260/41,232 | May 18, 1973 |
| Orthodox Presbyterian Church | Presbyterian U.S.A. | Willow Grove, PA | 300/20,417 | 1936 |
| Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church | Associate Presbytery/Reformed Presbytery | Greenville, SC | 250/40,392 | 1782 |
Links
LINKS
| Type | Name | Description |
|---|---|---|
| News | Crosswalk | The Intersection of Faith and Life |
| News | Church Report | National business news magazine |
| News | PC(USA) News | Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) News Service |
| News | Save Hollywood Pres | Links to news about PC(USA) Troubles |
| News | The Layman Online | THE News Source about PC(USA) |
| News | Layman - property | The Layman - Property Issues Archive |
| Blog | Reformed Pastor | EPC Pastor - Church Planter |
| Blog | Full Court Presby | Pastor Lance's Blog to his Congregation about PUP etc. |
| Blog | Classical Presbyterian | Blogging for the Reformed Resistance in the PC(USA) |
| Blog | Anderson Speak | Commentary on Faith, Christianity, and the PCUSA by Noel K. Anderson |
| Blog | Bayou Christian | Bill Crawford, Pastor First Presbyterian Church of Thiboduax |
| Blog | blog 137 | Pastor Dave Moody, Trinity United Presbyterian Church, Sparta, IL. |
| Blog | Truth in Love Network | A group of Presbyterian elders who are concerned with the direction of the PC(USA). |
| Blog | Mark D. Roberts | Professor & Senior Pastor of Irvine Presbyterian Church, CA |
| Blog | Institute on Religion and Democracy | 25 years of working to reform the social and political witness of American churches |
| Blog | The Berkley Blog | James D. Berkley, Director of Presbyterian Action |
| Blog | Tom's Thoughts | Tom Gray, Co-Pastor, Kirk of the Hills, Tulsa, OK |
| Web | Stand to Reason | Christian Ambassadors for defense for classical Christianity |
| Web | Presbyterian Forum | Working for reformation through overt political action |
| Web | Wiki:Presbyterian | Wikipedia's Presbyterian Overview |
| Web | Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK | Church in Tulsa, OK - Fighting for its Property. |
| Web | Kirk's Legal Docs (pdfs) | Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK |
| Web | Kirk Docs (text) | Kirk Of The Hills docs, Converted to text |
| Legal Strategy #1 | PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave | |
| Presbyteries Process #2 | PC(USA)'s Process for churches wanting to leave | |
| Doc | Secret Document #3 | News about a third secret document |
| Pic | Presby Chart 1 | Chart showing the history of breakups and mergers (standard) |
| Web | Presby Chart 2 | Presbyterian Church History-Lesson 13-An Overview of Contemporary American Presbyterianism |
| Web | Presby Chart 3 (text) | History of the Presbyterian Church (USA) |
| Web | Presby Chart 4 | Denomination Family Trees (Interactive) |
| Web | Presby Chart 5 | ARPC Denomination Family Tree |
| Web | Maps of Religions | List of Many Maps of 2000 Census Data on Religion |
| Pic | Map: County | Map of Denominations by County |
| Pic | Map: Presbyterian | Map of Presbyterian's as percentage of Population |
| Web | ARDA | Association of Religion Data Archives |
| PPT | Report on PUP | New Wineskin's Report on PUP |
| Report on PUP | New Wineskin's Report on PUP | |
| Book of Order | Official PDF Copy of Book of Order for PC(USA) | |
| Book of Confessions | Official PDF Copy of Book of Confessions for PC(USA) | |
| Web | Advisory Opinions | PC(USA) Stated Clerk Advisory Opinions (not binding, nor authoritative) |
| Web | PC(USA) Constitutional Musings | Office of Constitutional Services - Unofficial Thoughts |
| Web | PC(USA) Amicus Curiae Briefs | Stated Clerk & AC on Litigation - Friend of the Court Briefs |
| Web | GAPJC PC(USA) | PC(USA) General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission Decisions |
| Web | Pension Board PC(USA) | PC(USA) Board of Pensions |
| Web | Foundation PC(USA) | Presbyterian Foundation, New Covenant Trust and New Covenant Mutual Funds |
| Web | PC(USA) BOO Annotated | PC(USA) Book of Order - Annotated |
| Web | Presbyterian Coalition | Working for a Revitalized Church |
| Web | Confessing Church Movement | 1,314/434,697 |
| Web | New Wineskins | New Wineskins Association of Churches(2001) |
| Type | Name | Description |
Usage: This information, including formatting/html,..., may be used by other sites, without limit. In Fact, I hope somebody would take over, with more time on their hands.
Blog Archive
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2008
(171)
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April
(9)
- Kirk of the Hills - Releases Legal Documents Pt 2
- Riverside Released to PCA - No Fee
- News For April 28 - PCUSA grouchy as ever!
- Bay PC and Western Reserve Negotiating
- IRD under attack or exposed?
- Dismissed: Memorial Park PC to pay $575k to leave.
- SC church sues to clarify land ownership.
- Separation, Texas-Style
- St. Paul’s PC dismissed w/ Property, No money!
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▼
April
(9)
6 comments:
I can't understand this rationale. Heritage's property was bought by the Presbytery of New Covenant in 1980. It's first building was bought by the presbytery in 1981. The presbytery co-signed the loans for all their improvements. How can you say "they didn't pay for it" Point in fact, we paid for it together with Heritage. It belongs to both parties.
Congregations in the PCUSA system exist for the furtherance of the creedal understanding of the PCUSA. They are not for the futherance of congregation opinion when that opinion departs from the PCUSA.
Property is bought with the understanding that it will held in trust by the PCUSA. Ministers take vows to support this. Elders and Deacons take vows to support this. Congregations are led by their officers. We do not have a congregational polity.
It is beyond me to understand how our approach is not fair. It is the request of Heritage to leave with their property that isn't fair.
Your comment would be better on the original blog site. However, did the Presbytery really pay for the first building? Or did the church pay it back? Did they really co-sign or just approve? Exactly how much did the Presbytery spend and not have paid back?
PCUSA walked away from the Bible, Jesus, and tradition. WITHOUT the proper permission of the churches.
Not sure how to get to the original site...this is what comes up when I googled looking for other information.
The answers to your questions are yes. Heritage was a NCD and the terms did not expect it to be paid back. They did in fact co-sign. Heritage admits that their arguments are with teh denomination not with the presbytery.
You are incorrect about PROPER permission. Each church has representation at every court level of the church. They are entitled to their votes. Heritage has never been disenfranchised from its entitled votes. You cannot make the case that the PCUSA does not have PROPER permission when the representation that the church has always agreed to was in place.
As you to characterization of the PCUSA walking away from the Bible and Jesus, I'll just say that is a matter of your differing discernment from that of my own.
As to walking away from tradition. Well, in the Reformed understanding tradition is not, in and of itself, our authority for faith and life. It has never been an authority on par with Jesus or the Bible. That would be more Arminian, Wesleyan, Catholic, or Episcopal in understanding. So if we have walked away from tradition in the pursuit of Jesus, Scripture and the Holy Spirit then we are squarely in the Reformed understanding.
Kyle to go to the original site, click on the title of the blog entry on my site or use
this link.
You appear to be technically correct. Then the Pastors and session were correct to leave and start a new building. I not sure, how much grace and love was shown by this act. Was it wise, financially, when the vote was 299-63?
Since the changes on the makeup of the delegates to National, the deck has been stacked against the churches. I could write an entire thesis, on this subject alone.
The property trust clause, is new to many churches, after the union. Another thesis subject.
As far as being led by elders, I agree. When it come time to vote on a change to the constitution (BOO), how is the voted taken?
Again, which way should we lean? Legality or Grace?
Jim,
I think you're a good conversation partner about this and I appreciate your thoughts.
Let me finish up with your point and then I'll see if I need to report at the other location to engage others about this.
Usually I'm the one making the grace v. law argument. I think this gets used by both sides a bit disingenously. I'm not saying you are being disingenous but I just want to note that more of this is about self-interest rather than grace on both sides than maybe you or I will easily admit.
As to the vote being one sided. Remember that that voted followed a set of secret meetings by Heritage. These folks were only given information through the filter of the pastoral leadership who worked months quietly behind closed doors to leave the denomination. Presbytery never had a chance to address any grievances. The congregational meeting to vote was set before presbytery knew there was a problem.
I think you do have a point when you just look at the numbers but you need to look at this closer. This presbytery is not like others you may be blogging about. We tend to be more conservative as a presbytery and more grassroots and less top-down about this particular issue. As is said around here a lot...we don't want to be in the real estate business.
However, when the church sets a congregational meetings to vote on departure and lets you know after it is set....and when their pastors and elders renounce jurisdiction before the meeting is held to vote on what to do with the property...I mean, they honestly made the decision quite clear-cut and easy.
So, I ask you...did the session and pastors really help themselves much on the property issue in this case? Was the presbytery even given the chance to do the PROPER thing in your eyes? Many of us were ready to at least work for a compromise.
It felt like the Heritage majority simply wanted the appearance of a polarized conclusion to this.
Remember also that the minority deserved some amount of advocacy. They are active and interested in working hard and growing in that place.
I am afraid you are the victims of behavior of the rest of PCUSA. The actions of all of the other Presbyteries, "The Louisville Papers", even the actions of some Synods, all color the trust, perceptions, and legal evaluations.
My own presbytery, EOP, has contributed to this destruction of trust. We have had leans placed on our property, lawsuits, Administrative Commissions out of control, threats made to pastors, "requests" for donations to support lawsuits.
I know your Presbytery has set up a procedure for leaving, but it may have been too late in this case. What actions has your Presbytery done previously, in regard to the trust clause? Have you endorsed its removal?
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