Kirk vote 10/19:
For buying property - 508
Against - 483
A Kirk member
ED: As my wife says: "We're screwed" - the small churchs will never be able to leave.
Organize the web stories, info on the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) troubles: Property Ownership, Church Withdrawals, Ordination Standards, Hierarchical vs. Connectional.
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Presbylaw temporary site.
Tracking the PC USA troubles.
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Other Websites Covering Property
| Layman Online: | |
| Legal Resource Databank | |
| Chart: Churches leaving the PCUSA | |
| Archives on property issues within the PCUSA | |
| PCUSA: Legal Strategy #1 | |
| PCUSA: Presbyteries Process #2 | |
| PCUSA: Secret Document #3 |
Voting on PCUSA Admendments: Sources
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If you have comments, corrections, or updates to this website please email me: PRESBYLAW webmaster or leave a comment.
If you wish to make a church announcement of a vote or lawsuit, I will need to verify. You either need to send it via a email that I can publicly verify belongs to the church, or point to a website with a news story, or official church website. Contacting the layman may be a better route.
LINKS
| Type | Name | Description |
|---|---|---|
| FEED | PCUSA List Feed | Atom Feed of Blog Posts |
| PRESBYLAW webmaster | Comments, corrections, updates | |
| NEWS | PRESBYWEB: Viewpoint | PCUSA Property Trust History Disputed By Jeffrey C. Francis |
| Memorial Park on Seperation | Bulletin Insert for May 6th | |
| Web | Kirk's Legal Docs (pdfs) | Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK |
| PCUSA Articles of Incorporation | Churches can't be a member of the PCUSA according to its own articles of incorporation | |
| Legal Strategy #1 | PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave | |
| Presbyteries Process #2 | PC(USA)'s Process for churches wanting to leave | |
| Doc | Secret Document #3 | News about a third secret document |
| Process | Administrative Review Process from the Synod of the Northeast | |
| Presbytery Of New Covenant | Process For Addressing Churches Seeking To Withdraw From PC(USA) | |
| Wabash Valley Presbytery | Separatist Task Force | |
| Doc | PC(USA): Constitutional Musings: Note 12 | Responding Pastorally to Troubled Churches |
| Doc | PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 02 | Dissent and Defiance |
| Doc | PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 03 | Administrative Commission |
| PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 11 | Church Property | |
| Doc | PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 17 | Schism |
| Doc | PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 19 | Implementing the Trust Clause for the Unity of the Church |
| Web | Presbyterian Outlook | Statement about resources prepared by the Constitutional Services Department and the Office of Legal Services at the General Assembly level of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) |
| Web | Stated Clerk, GAC chief urge churches not to defect from PC(USA) | We are better together in Christ's Unity |
| Type | Name | Description |
PC(USA) News Service
Presbyterian Google News
IRD Presbyterian News
The Christian Post
Denominations
| Denomination Name | Parent | Location | Size | Year |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. - UPCUSA(N) | PUSA & UPCNA | New York City | 8,909/2,342,441 | 1958-1983 |
| Presbyterian Church in United States (Confederate) - PCUS(S) | Presbyterian Church in United States | Atlanta, Ga. | 4,250/814,931 | 1861-1983 |
| Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) PC(U.S.A) | UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) | Louisville, Kentucky | 11,596/3,122,213 | June 10, 1983 |
| Evangelical Presbyterian Church EPC | UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) | Livonia, MI | 67/19,000 (1982) | 1980/1981 |
| Presbyterian Church of America PCA | PCUS(S) | Lawrenceville, GA | 260/41,232 | May 18, 1973 |
| Orthodox Presbyterian Church | Presbyterian U.S.A. | Willow Grove, PA | 300/20,417 | 1936 |
| Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church | Associate Presbytery/Reformed Presbytery | Greenville, SC | 250/40,392 | 1782 |
Links
LINKS
| Type | Name | Description |
|---|---|---|
| News | Crosswalk | The Intersection of Faith and Life |
| News | Church Report | National business news magazine |
| News | PC(USA) News | Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) News Service |
| News | Save Hollywood Pres | Links to news about PC(USA) Troubles |
| News | The Layman Online | THE News Source about PC(USA) |
| News | Layman - property | The Layman - Property Issues Archive |
| Blog | Reformed Pastor | EPC Pastor - Church Planter |
| Blog | Full Court Presby | Pastor Lance's Blog to his Congregation about PUP etc. |
| Blog | Classical Presbyterian | Blogging for the Reformed Resistance in the PC(USA) |
| Blog | Anderson Speak | Commentary on Faith, Christianity, and the PCUSA by Noel K. Anderson |
| Blog | Bayou Christian | Bill Crawford, Pastor First Presbyterian Church of Thiboduax |
| Blog | blog 137 | Pastor Dave Moody, Trinity United Presbyterian Church, Sparta, IL. |
| Blog | Truth in Love Network | A group of Presbyterian elders who are concerned with the direction of the PC(USA). |
| Blog | Mark D. Roberts | Professor & Senior Pastor of Irvine Presbyterian Church, CA |
| Blog | Institute on Religion and Democracy | 25 years of working to reform the social and political witness of American churches |
| Blog | The Berkley Blog | James D. Berkley, Director of Presbyterian Action |
| Blog | Tom's Thoughts | Tom Gray, Co-Pastor, Kirk of the Hills, Tulsa, OK |
| Web | Stand to Reason | Christian Ambassadors for defense for classical Christianity |
| Web | Presbyterian Forum | Working for reformation through overt political action |
| Web | Wiki:Presbyterian | Wikipedia's Presbyterian Overview |
| Web | Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK | Church in Tulsa, OK - Fighting for its Property. |
| Web | Kirk's Legal Docs (pdfs) | Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK |
| Web | Kirk Docs (text) | Kirk Of The Hills docs, Converted to text |
| Legal Strategy #1 | PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave | |
| Presbyteries Process #2 | PC(USA)'s Process for churches wanting to leave | |
| Doc | Secret Document #3 | News about a third secret document |
| Pic | Presby Chart 1 | Chart showing the history of breakups and mergers (standard) |
| Web | Presby Chart 2 | Presbyterian Church History-Lesson 13-An Overview of Contemporary American Presbyterianism |
| Web | Presby Chart 3 (text) | History of the Presbyterian Church (USA) |
| Web | Presby Chart 4 | Denomination Family Trees (Interactive) |
| Web | Presby Chart 5 | ARPC Denomination Family Tree |
| Web | Maps of Religions | List of Many Maps of 2000 Census Data on Religion |
| Pic | Map: County | Map of Denominations by County |
| Pic | Map: Presbyterian | Map of Presbyterian's as percentage of Population |
| Web | ARDA | Association of Religion Data Archives |
| PPT | Report on PUP | New Wineskin's Report on PUP |
| Report on PUP | New Wineskin's Report on PUP | |
| Book of Order | Official PDF Copy of Book of Order for PC(USA) | |
| Book of Confessions | Official PDF Copy of Book of Confessions for PC(USA) | |
| Web | Advisory Opinions | PC(USA) Stated Clerk Advisory Opinions (not binding, nor authoritative) |
| Web | PC(USA) Constitutional Musings | Office of Constitutional Services - Unofficial Thoughts |
| Web | PC(USA) Amicus Curiae Briefs | Stated Clerk & AC on Litigation - Friend of the Court Briefs |
| Web | GAPJC PC(USA) | PC(USA) General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission Decisions |
| Web | Pension Board PC(USA) | PC(USA) Board of Pensions |
| Web | Foundation PC(USA) | Presbyterian Foundation, New Covenant Trust and New Covenant Mutual Funds |
| Web | PC(USA) BOO Annotated | PC(USA) Book of Order - Annotated |
| Web | Presbyterian Coalition | Working for a Revitalized Church |
| Web | Confessing Church Movement | 1,314/434,697 |
| Web | New Wineskins | New Wineskins Association of Churches(2001) |
| Type | Name | Description |
Usage: This information, including formatting/html,..., may be used by other sites, without limit. In Fact, I hope somebody would take over, with more time on their hands.
Blog Archive
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2008
(171)
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October
(26)
- More Court Filings in Kirk of the Hills
- GAPJC says Presbteries have Right to Act Like Dict...
- Presbytery of Central Washington: GA 06/08 have Br...
- Two more churches to leave PCUSA?
- Check out the NEW and IMPROVED Layman Online!
- Kirk Objects to EOP's Proposed Journal Entry
- Greg Coulter's (EOP's General Presbyter) Letter ab...
- Kirk of the Hills - They agreed to disagree, but n...
- 7 Years - Free at Last!
- Announcement from Tim Trump regarding failed settl...
- PCUSA lawyer clouds Kirk settlement proposal
- Kirk congregation votes to buy property! 508-483
- Note from a Kirk Member
- Kirk Documents Released!
- Kirk of the Hills Court Fillings
- Kirk Session Recommends Not to Buy!
- FPC of Thibodaux PC(USA) dissolved!
- Open Letter to EOP Delegates to Presbytery
- Congregational Vote Postponed
- Kirk's View of the Case
- State of the Kirk of the Hills Case
- The Kirk Oct 6 Court "Outcome"
- Presbytery of Wabash Valley acts like a greedy fool!
- Four churches in California have announced they ar...
- Kirk Files Notice of Pendecy of Action
- Kirk Court "Fillings" - Updated
-
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October
(26)
9 comments:
I voted against accepting the settlement for this very reason. It is my hope that the Kirk leadership might consider assisting some other Oklahoma churches in leaving the PC(USA) so that there may be an appealable case presented to the OK Supreme Court so that Cimmaron can be reconsidered.
For my local situation, I probably switch to the Wesleyan church.
The Kirk vote was very close, and the only reason the vote (by 25) was to buy the property is because EOP poured on the pressure right before the vote.
EOP dropped a couple of parts of the lawsuit to speed up the final judgment. This would have allowed them to evict the Kirk congregation. They told us they would do this and start a new church in the Kirk facility.
Many Kirk members (myself included)as well as the session changed their minds more than once about how they would vote.
If I were in a church that wanted to leave the PCUSA, I would encourage the session to embark on a building or remodeling project and mortgage the church facility as much as possible. Then the congregation could walk away and leave the presbytery with the mortgage payments.
If the Kirk had done this EOP wouldn't have wanted the property. They never wanted the property in the first place--it was all about the money.
All is not lost for you. Remember that with God all things are possible. If there are enough disenchanted with the PCUSA in your area, maybe you can all get together and start an Evangelical Presbyterian Church.
A Kirk member
"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you."
We all know that this money will not do EOP any good anyway. Blood money is not blessed by the Lord nor is extortion. Let them have their Mammon and let the Kirk have Christ. I think we know who wins that one.
As to the national implications, only in OK and FL are the courts giving over to the presbyteries. Everywhere else the congregations are winning big-time--witness the recent victories in VA as one example from the Episcopal side. The battle is the Lord's.
At least Kirk can get on with prospering and EOP can get on with dying.
Jim,
Wesleyan???
No way, man! I agree with the Kirk member--start an EPC plant or CRC or something! The Reformed faith is what the world needs: The sovereignty of God in all things, the sure election of our salvation and a godly lifestyle of simplicity.
Get some people together and start praying for a new church. God will provide.
Toby,
What problems do you have with Wesleyan Denomination? I have look at their website on doctrine and governance and it seems to be close to EPC. My local church is large, with a christian school, and a large college.
To quote #2: "All we want is information." (oops! I am dating my self.)
Well now it looks like the PCUSA is trying to add additional conditions after the settlement has been reached. Now they say they won't sign off unless they get a final ruling that's favorable to them, thus strengthening the current legal precedent. Not only do they want the money, they also want a club to hold over other Oklahoma churches.
Jim,
The Wesleyans do fine gospel preaching, but they are NOT Reformed. They believe in synergistic regeneration and reject unconditional election and they also think one can lose one's salvation.
Wesley was an Arminian in theology and his holiness preaching led to many of the movements that we see today causing havoc in doctrine and practice.
Now, the man Wesley was a WONDERFUL Christian man, make no mistake. Despite his errors, God used him in powerful ways. But the Wesleyan movement is just too far gone from our views on the sovereignty of God for a good fit to ever work between us.
See this site:
http://www.challies.com/archives/general-news/calvinism-vs-ar.php
God bless you in your journey!
Your wife is obviously brilliant. That is exactly what is at stake and I can't figure out why some churches don't just take the huge settlement money and throw it at lawyers....
Actually I do - they want to get on with worship, fellowship, discipleship, ministry, and mission. The ufortunately side effect is to really stick small congregations (unless they have unanimity and will like some that I know and cherish).
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