FINAL Statistics %Delagates vs %Presbytery

  2009 08B 2001
  Yes No Ab Yes No Ab
Presbytery 45.1% 78 9454.9% 1 28%48 12472%  
Delegate 48.8%10,415 10,93451.2% 6 43%10,188 13,30057% 5
Total Delegates 21,355(-9.1%) 23,488
Delegate change +1.0% 227 -2,366 -10.1% ?    

Updated: June 2, 2009 08:10 am (CDT)

  • The Yes08 crowd has only changed 1.0% of the delegates.
  • 10x more "no"-delegates did not vote! (Left or Driven Out?)
  • Winner takes all per Presbytery, changes the %winning big time. Especially 2001 vote
  • I wonder how this would work, if we voted per church (session)

Tuesday, November 10, 2009

Fate of 150-year-old church up for vote

cincinnati.com Story: The Presbytery of Cincinnati will vote at 5 p.m. Tuesday on the future of one of Cincinnati's oldest Presbyterian churches, Seventh Presbyterian Church at 1721 Madison Road, East Walnut Hills.

If the leadership votes to close the church, the church congregation must forfeit the property to the Presbytery but all church contents belong to the church congregation

Church members held a vote in October to close its doors.

ED: "The contents belong to the congregation" is a new one on me

Thursday, November 5, 2009

Westminster Presbyterian Church, Sacramento, CA

Sacramento News Review Story: "Thompson don’t preach"

Wednesday, October 28, 2009

Washington Presbytery appeals property case loss

Layman Story: Washington Presbytery appeals property case loss

Tuesday, October 27, 2009

South Louisiana Presbytery found in contempt of court

Layman Story: South Louisiana Presbytery found in contempt of court

The name of Mark Tammen, an attorney for the Presbyterian Church (USA)’s Office of the General Assembly, is on 398 of the documents, suggesting the denomination’s heavy involvement in this case.

3 Valley Presbyterian churches part ways

Layman Story: California congregations finalize split from PCUSA

Fresno Bee Story: 3 Valley Presbyterian churches part ways

  • Trinity Presbyterian Church in Clovis
  • First Presbyterian Church in downtown Fresno
  • Fowler Presbyterian Church

"The relationships we share with these three congregations, as brothers and sisters in Christ, are more important than property," said the Rev. Rick Irish, interim leader of the Presbytery of San Joaquin, which governs Valley congregations within Presbyterian Church (USA). "Therefore, we didn't make property an issue."

On Sunday, Trinity Presbyterian Church in Clovis held a service to complete the split and join the more conservative Evangelical Presbyterian Church, based in Litonia, Mich.

Two other congregations, First Presbyterian Church in downtown Fresno and Fowler Presbyterian Church, held similar services Oct. 18.

Who has the right vote count?

I have in my spreadsheet, the votes recorded by Layman, Presbyweb, and Yes08B. Here are the presbyteries with vote differences:

Presbytery Presbylaw Layman Presbyterian
Coalition
Presbyweb YesOn08 Notes
Abingdon 29-41 19-41 19-41      
Boise 25-34 Voice-No       Official: Voice Incorrect
Chicago 200-69 200-60 200-60 200-69 204-69 NO CONCENSUS!
Denver 114-40   118-41 118-41    
Donegal 63-87 63-86 63-86      
Foothills 34-99 41-131       Big Difference
Grace 203-182     203-183    
Noroeste 7-41-1 Voice-No Voice-No      
Northern New England 56-30     57-30    
Northern Waters 52-11       53-11  
San Francisco 167-177-4 -0 -0 -0 -0 Abstain
Savannah 29-38 Voice Voice      
Shenango 4-101 4-106 4-106      
Utica 70-3 70-3 Voice Voice Voice Official: Voice
Washington 29-70 27-70 27-70      
Yukon 18-41       17-42  
  • Updated: May 26, 2009: Put my count and only differences from it
  • May 28, 2009: Reordered columns to put like counts together.

Voting Spread Chart

Voting Spread Chart

Presbylaw temporary site.

Announcement Policy

If you have comments, corrections, or updates to this website please email me: PRESBYLAW webmaster or leave a comment.

If you wish to make a church announcement of a vote or lawsuit, I will need to verify. You either need to send it via a email that I can publicly verify belongs to the church, or point to a website with a news story, or official church website. Contacting the layman may be a better route.

LINKS

TypeNameDescription
FEED PCUSA List Feed Atom Feed of Blog Posts
EMAIL PRESBYLAW webmaster Comments, corrections, updates
NEWS PRESBYWEB: Viewpoint PCUSA Property Trust History Disputed By Jeffrey C. Francis
PDF Memorial Park on Seperation Bulletin Insert for May 6th
Web Kirk's Legal Docs (pdfs) Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK
PDF PCUSA Articles of Incorporation Churches can't be a member of the PCUSA according to its own articles of incorporation
PDF Legal Strategy #1PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave
PDF Presbyteries Process #2 PC(USA)'s Process for churches wanting to leave
Doc Secret Document #3 News about a third secret document
PDF Process Administrative Review Process from the Synod of the Northeast
PDF Presbytery Of New Covenant Process For Addressing Churches Seeking To Withdraw From PC(USA)
PDF Wabash Valley Presbytery Separatist Task Force
Doc PC(USA): Constitutional Musings: Note 12 Responding Pastorally to Troubled Churches
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 02 Dissent and Defiance
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 03 Administrative Commission
PDF PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 11 Church Property
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 17 Schism
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 19 Implementing the Trust Clause for the Unity of the Church
Web Presbyterian Outlook Statement about resources prepared by the Constitutional Services Department and the Office of Legal Services at the General Assembly level of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
Web Stated Clerk, GAC chief urge churches not to defect from PC(USA) We are better together in Christ's Unity
TypeNameDescription

PC(USA) News Service

Presbyterian Google News

IRD Presbyterian News

The Christian Post

Denomination News

Evangelical Presbyterian Church

DateNews
07Jun26 EPC approves Transitional Presbytery for New Wineskins
1: Christian Post
2: Layman
Layman Coverage New Wineskins Association of Churches Convocation IV

Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)

DateNews
07Dec1 Pitt PG: Secession sends churches into unknown territory
No easy answers on who really owns church property
07Oct12 AP:Conservative Presbyterians Leave Church
07Sep07 Presbyterian Church Overview.
3: Conservative Voice
2: Virtue Online
1: Scripts Howard News Service
07May24 Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to cut more staff.
1: Courier Journal-Louisville
2: PCUSA
07Jun07 Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) loses more members.
1: Layman
2: Courier Journal-Louisville
3:Beliefnet
07Jun15 Linda Valentine and Clifton Kirkpatrick responds to New Wineskins.
1: PDF @PCUSA
2: Layman
3: Christian Post
07Jun25 Presbyterian policymaking body is cutting 7 jobs
1: Akron Beacon Journal
07Jun26 First Five Overtures to 218th General Assembly of PC(USA)
1: Layman
07Jul28 Local Presbyterians question denomination’s changes.
Newspaper

PC USA Synod News

Presbytery Location Synod Date News
Newark Bloomfield, NJ 07003 NortheastEast Syracuse, NY 13057 07Sept17 No decision to divest(Oct 2006?)
In Presbyterian terms(Sept 15, 2007)
Trinty Lexington, SC 29073 Synod of the South Atlantic 07Jul10 South Carolina presbytery votes to affirm fidelity/chastity requirement
Olympia Lakewood, WA 98498 Alaska/Northwest 07Mar20 Synod PJC does not sustain complaint against "every mandate of the BoO is an essential"
Decision
Heartland Kansas City MO 64109 Mid-America 07Jun15 Heartland Presbytery proposal targets congregations thinking about leaving PCUSA:
1: Proposal
2: Approved
3: BLOG
" " " 07Sept21 Heartland Presbytery panel refuses dismissal request from congregations that voted to leave PCUSA, without negotiations
San Joaquin Visalia, CA 93291 Pacific 07Apr18 Pre-emptive action against any pastor, session or congregation over church property ruled out.
Sacramento Sacramento, CA 95827 Pacific 07June26 Court rules against 3 presbytery polices
1: Upholding ordination standards.
2: Policy honoring the withholding of per-capita payments.
3: Never enforce the trust provisions.
Official Ruling PDF PCUSA
Western North Carolina Morganton, NC 28655 Mid-Atlantic 07Aug03 Nationwide campaign to seek contributions to fund litigation expenses1 2
" " " 07Aug03 Exit guidelines change approved
" " " 07Aug01 Proposal would appoint panel with takeover authority for churches that don't have 75% vote to seek dismissal
" " " 07Apr16 Anticipating churches may leave PCUSA, presbytery sets high-hurdle 'exit guidelines'
" " " 06Oct10 PDF: Guidelines for Congregations Considering A Request to Presbytery to be Dismissed
" " " 06Oct18 Presbytery Considers High Hurdles for letting church leave PCUSA
Plains and PeaksGreeley, Colorado 80631Rocky Mountains07Mar19 No 'right of conscience' for governing bodies, new examination policy states
Mississippi Hattiesburg, MS 39402 Living Waters 07Mar08 Congregation-friendly property policy is unconstitutional, synod committee says
" " " 07Mar08 Churches own their properties, final declaratory judgments states
" " " 07Mar01 Approves end to church property ownership cases clause
"""06Dec01 Votes against enforcing property clause
"""06Oct23 Calls for group to review report on church property
"""06Oct13 Task force wants to cede property to control of congregations
North Alabama Huntsville, AL 35801 Living Waters 05Nov01 Votes down overture on property
San Barbara Goleta CA 93117Southern California and Hawaii 07Feb15 Approves resolution to stand against the destruction of the church
San Gabriel Azusa, CA 91702 " 05June03 Presbytery 'implores' each church to confirm its property is held in trust for PCUSA
San Diego San Diego 92107 " 05Nov05 Considering resolution that could lead to leaving PCUSA
Washington Eighty-Four, PA 15330 Trinity 07Jul12 Presbyterians agree on split process
" " " 07Sept13 Presbytery must decide what is Essential on a case-by-case basis, re: Fidility
Pittsburgh Pittsburgh PA 15233 " 07Feb15 Stay of enforcement issued against presbytery for voting to uphold ordination standards.
" " " 07May10 Presbytery leader leaving
" " " 07Jun08 Presbytery wrestles with departures
Kiskiminetas Yatesboro, PA 16263 " 06Jun28 Presbytery rejects crackdown on congregations 'reportedly' considering leaving PCUSA
Donegal Lancaster, PA 17605 " 05Nov21 Committee opposes overture to toss out property clause
Beaver Butler Zelienople PA 16063 " 07Sept18 Trust clause will not be used 'to shackle churches' to the PCUSA if they 'genuinely desire to depart'
Grand Canyon Phoenix, AZ 85016 Southwest 05Sept28 Presbytery exec says he will make churches pay for schism
Eastern Oklahoma Tulsa, OK 74119 Sun 07Mar08 Presbytery declares Kirk of the Hills in schism
" " " 06Apr12 Presbytery files affidavits on local church property

Denominations

Denomination NameParentLocationSizeYear
United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. - UPCUSA(N) PUSA & UPCNA New York City8,909/2,342,4411958-1983
Presbyterian Church in United States (Confederate) - PCUS(S) Presbyterian Church in United States Atlanta, Ga.4,250/814,9311861-1983
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) PC(U.S.A) UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) Louisville, Kentucky11,596/3,122,213June 10, 1983
Evangelical Presbyterian Church EPC UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) Livonia, MI67/19,000 (1982)1980/1981
Presbyterian Church of America PCA PCUS(S) Lawrenceville, GA260/41,232May 18, 1973
Orthodox Presbyterian Church Presbyterian U.S.A. Willow Grove, PA 300/20,417 1936
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church Associate Presbytery/Reformed Presbytery Greenville, SC 250/40,392 1782

Links

LINKS

TypeNameDescription
News Crosswalk The Intersection of Faith and Life
News Church Report National business news magazine
NewsPC(USA) NewsPresbyterian Church (U.S.A.) News Service
NewsSave Hollywood PresLinks to news about PC(USA) Troubles
NewsThe Layman OnlineTHE News Source about PC(USA)
NewsLayman - propertyThe Layman - Property Issues Archive
Blog Reformed Pastor EPC Pastor - Church Planter
BlogFull Court PresbyPastor Lance's Blog to his Congregation about PUP etc.
BlogClassical PresbyterianBlogging for the Reformed Resistance in the PC(USA)
BlogAnderson SpeakCommentary on Faith, Christianity, and the PCUSA by Noel K. Anderson
BlogBayou Christian Bill Crawford, Pastor First Presbyterian Church of Thiboduax
Blogblog 137Pastor Dave Moody, Trinity United Presbyterian Church, Sparta, IL.
BlogTruth in Love NetworkA group of Presbyterian elders who are concerned with the direction of the PC(USA).
BlogMark D. RobertsProfessor & Senior Pastor of Irvine Presbyterian Church, CA
BlogInstitute on Religion and Democracy25 years of working to reform the social and political witness of American churches
Blog The Berkley Blog James D. Berkley, Director of Presbyterian Action
BlogTom's ThoughtsTom Gray, Co-Pastor, Kirk of the Hills, Tulsa, OK
WebStand to ReasonChristian Ambassadors for defense for classical Christianity
WebPresbyterian ForumWorking for reformation through overt political action
WebWiki:PresbyterianWikipedia's Presbyterian Overview
WebKirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OKChurch in Tulsa, OK - Fighting for its Property.
WebKirk's Legal Docs (pdfs)Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK
WebKirk Docs (text)Kirk Of The Hills docs, Converted to text
PDFLegal Strategy #1PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave
PDFPresbyteries Process #2PC(USA)'s Process for churches wanting to leave
DocSecret Document #3News about a third secret document
PicPresby Chart 1Chart showing the history of breakups and mergers (standard)
WebPresby Chart 2Presbyterian Church History-Lesson 13-An Overview of Contemporary American Presbyterianism
WebPresby Chart 3 (text)History of the Presbyterian Church (USA)
Web Presby Chart 4 Denomination Family Trees (Interactive)
WebPresby Chart 5 ARPC Denomination Family Tree
WebMaps of ReligionsList of Many Maps of 2000 Census Data on Religion
PicMap: CountyMap of Denominations by County
Pic Map: Presbyterian Map of Presbyterian's as percentage of Population
Web ARDA Association of Religion Data Archives
PPTReport on PUPNew Wineskin's Report on PUP
PDFReport on PUPNew Wineskin's Report on PUP
PDFBook of OrderOfficial PDF Copy of Book of Order for PC(USA)
PDFBook of ConfessionsOfficial PDF Copy of Book of Confessions for PC(USA)
WebAdvisory OpinionsPC(USA) Stated Clerk Advisory Opinions (not binding, nor authoritative)
WebPC(USA) Constitutional MusingsOffice of Constitutional Services - Unofficial Thoughts
WebPC(USA) Amicus Curiae BriefsStated Clerk & AC on Litigation - Friend of the Court Briefs
WebGAPJC PC(USA)PC(USA) General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission Decisions
WebPension Board PC(USA)PC(USA) Board of Pensions
WebFoundation PC(USA)Presbyterian Foundation, New Covenant Trust and New Covenant Mutual Funds
WebPC(USA) BOO AnnotatedPC(USA) Book of Order - Annotated
WebPresbyterian CoalitionWorking for a Revitalized Church
WebConfessing Church Movement1,314/434,697
WebNew WineskinsNew Wineskins Association of Churches(2001)
TypeNameDescription

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