Monday, October 29, 2007

News Summary

The layman has so much new news today, that it was hard for me to grasp it all. So here is a summary of the actions of Presbytery of Western North Carolina:

FPC Baton Rouge votes to Leave

First Presbyterian Church of Baton Rouge voted 425-61 to leave PC(USA) for EPC on Sunday Oct 28, 2007. This was covered by the Advocate (newspaper) online. I also want to call you attention to a very well written letter on the Presbytery of Southern Louisiana website by the General Presbyter, Rev. Dr. Alan D. Cutter. His brick-by-brick description of the problems of PC(USA) is one of the best summaries I have seen. I have saved it, in case it fades from the web.

Sunday, October 28, 2007

Hudson Presbyterian Church Owns Property

The website says that the court has ruled that the property belongs to the local church and its 500 members and is NOT in trust for PC(USA)! Eastminster Presbytery is considering filling objections to the ruling. The Hudson congregation voted 166-61 on Nov. 5, 2006. For a member's blog check out this site.

Heritage PC Houston, TX, session calls Congregation meeting.

Heritage Presbyterian church's session has called for a congregational meeting to vote on dismissal from PC(USA) to EPC/NW. They and the Presbytery of the New Covenant appear to be handling this in a Christian manner. But I see rumblings from certain people in the presbytery. Hopefully , those who choose to follow the example of Jesus will prevail. My prayers will go out for both sides. This brings my list to 40 churches taking action after PUP.

Friday, October 26, 2007

Website Updated

  • Cleanup of info on congregrations split from Hendersonville
  • Added Google map of Churches on the list.
  • Added Google map of Churches in EPC.
  • Church List Moved to new page I am blogging too much and the page is crowded.
  • Added links from the churches mentioned to entry on churchlist. Note: on my browser, I have to scroll down a line or two to see the entry.
  • Added links to latest letters from Montreat and Hendersonville (Thanks Layman)
  • Found a presbytery report of past due per-capita, so I created a graphic of the data. Some of the drops in past-due are due to forgiving of the debt by the presbytery.

Thursday, October 25, 2007

Timeline of Presbyterian Mischief

  • Sept 2005 - Process for Presbyteries draft
  • Dec 2005 - Legal Strategy paper revised.
  • Mar 6 2006 - Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery files affidavits file on every church in presbytery.
  • Apr 12, 2006 - EOP affidavits revealed.
  • Aug 9, 2006 - Louisville papers revealed.
  • Aug 15, 2006 - Kirk of the Hills (Tulsa,OK) session votes to disaffiliate.
  • Aug 18, 2006 - 3rd paper "revealed"
  • Aug 30, 2006 - Kirk's congregation votes to disaffiliate.
It looks like the whole property mess started in Tulsa, OK! Why? Here are some possibilities:
  • Fear of Kirk of the Hills leaving due to New Wineskins.
  • EOP's General Presbyter is dedicated to PC (USA).
  • Louisville (Stated Clerk) talked EOP into the affidavits.
  • Budget worries from loss of churches.
  • Fear of mass exodus.
  • EOP has one light church.
Comments Please!

Tuesday, October 23, 2007

More News

Monday, October 22, 2007

Friday, October 19, 2007

Beverly Heights Presbyterian Church Dismissed

According to the Pittsburgh Post Gazette Newspaper website Beverly Heights Presbyterian Church (267 members) was dismissed by the Pittsburgh Presbytery by a vote of 174-73-2. Beverly Heights voted on April 22, 2007 to requess dismissal by a vote of 195-4. The Presbytery website has the dismissal agreeement and a FAQ about the dismissal. According to the Oct presbytery packet, BH "owed" about $77,000 in back per-capita (2000-2007). Interestingly, for the entire presbytery the total for 2004+ thru 2007 is
  • $1,548,200 expected
  • $735,025 paid (47%)
  • $813,174 unpaid
The conditions listed are:
  • Promised not to sue each other.
  • Church to pay $250,000 over the next ten years w/lien to guarantee.
  • Church forfeit of trust fund of $46,655
  • Church gets to keep land and name ($1,160,100)

Thursday, October 18, 2007

A Review of a Critic

I gathered some information on Carol Joan Schaef, a member of Memorial Park in McCandless, PA. She seems to accuse EPC of many things while condemning EPC for accusing PCUSA of many things. Her man objection to changing denominations is "personal pain following church separation." I have not found where she defends the changes at PCUSA. After reading all of her comments, I have little respect for her viewpoints or her actions. The decision has been made by the vast majority: 951-93. It is time for those in the minority to either accept the decision or to graciously move on to another church. One of the members of our church left for another PCUSA church and unlike others, he did so graciously and did not speak ill of those he left behind. I still have respect for him, even when I do not agree with some of his opinions. This is the sign of a true Christian. Here is the list of her blogs/letters. Unfortunately, Layman does not allow a direct link to individual letters.

Wednesday, October 17, 2007

Londonderry Presbyterian Church

I recommend you read the letters to the editor at Layman Online about Londonderry Presbyterian Church, they give both sides of the split. I may be prejudiced but I see very bad behavior on the part of the PCUSA writers, newspaper and very thoughtful and prayerful consideration on the church side. Unfortunately, this same behavior is playing out, over and over and over again. It seems every split that occurs is meet with deceit, power-graping, and greed. I am still ashamed of my own presbytery actions (Eastern Oklahoma) against Kirk of the Hills and every single church in the Presbytery (affidavits).

Thursday, October 4, 2007

Is Joan Gray living in a different dimension?

A Christian Post news story quotes Moderator Joan Gray, as saying "Anger, Mistrust Has Abated"!

Another snippet from the new story: "Over a year later, church officials do not feel a mass exodus of congregations is as threatening today." My list is up to 35 from the time of PUP approval, June 2006. A few more started the exodus just before PUP, that I wonder if they were related.

Does Joan really believe this? Does she just say this for good PR? Is she saying this to bolster the fight? Start Trek did many shows on alternative realities, I did not think Joan actually would prove it.

Wednesday, October 3, 2007

Why I left PCUSA!

Not me (yet), but this blog (Recovering Presbyterian-now ex-presbyterian) gives a excellent explanation why more and more are leaving PCUSA and have decided that "stay and fight" is no longer a viable option.

Presbylaw temporary site.

Announcement Policy

If you have comments, corrections, or updates to this website please email me: PRESBYLAW webmaster or leave a comment.

If you wish to make a church announcement of a vote or lawsuit, I will need to verify. You either need to send it via a email that I can publicly verify belongs to the church, or point to a website with a news story, or official church website. Contacting the layman may be a better route.


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NEWS PRESBYWEB: Viewpoint PCUSA Property Trust History Disputed By Jeffrey C. Francis
PDF Memorial Park on Seperation Bulletin Insert for May 6th
Web Kirk's Legal Docs (pdfs) Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK
PDF PCUSA Articles of Incorporation Churches can't be a member of the PCUSA according to its own articles of incorporation
PDF Legal Strategy #1PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave
PDF Presbyteries Process #2 PC(USA)'s Process for churches wanting to leave
Doc Secret Document #3 News about a third secret document
PDF Process Administrative Review Process from the Synod of the Northeast
PDF Presbytery Of New Covenant Process For Addressing Churches Seeking To Withdraw From PC(USA)
PDF Wabash Valley Presbytery Separatist Task Force
Doc PC(USA): Constitutional Musings: Note 12 Responding Pastorally to Troubled Churches
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 02 Dissent and Defiance
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 03 Administrative Commission
PDF PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 11 Church Property
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 17 Schism
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 19 Implementing the Trust Clause for the Unity of the Church
Web Presbyterian Outlook Statement about resources prepared by the Constitutional Services Department and the Office of Legal Services at the General Assembly level of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
Web Stated Clerk, GAC chief urge churches not to defect from PC(USA) We are better together in Christ's Unity

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Denomination NameParentLocationSizeYear
United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. - UPCUSA(N) PUSA & UPCNA New York City8,909/2,342,4411958-1983
Presbyterian Church in United States (Confederate) - PCUS(S) Presbyterian Church in United States Atlanta, Ga.4,250/814,9311861-1983
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) PC(U.S.A) UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) Louisville, Kentucky11,596/3,122,213June 10, 1983
Evangelical Presbyterian Church EPC UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) Livonia, MI67/19,000 (1982)1980/1981
Presbyterian Church of America PCA PCUS(S) Lawrenceville, GA260/41,232May 18, 1973
Orthodox Presbyterian Church Presbyterian U.S.A. Willow Grove, PA 300/20,417 1936
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church Associate Presbytery/Reformed Presbytery Greenville, SC 250/40,392 1782



News Crosswalk The Intersection of Faith and Life
News Church Report National business news magazine
NewsPC(USA) NewsPresbyterian Church (U.S.A.) News Service
NewsSave Hollywood PresLinks to news about PC(USA) Troubles
NewsThe Layman OnlineTHE News Source about PC(USA)
NewsLayman - propertyThe Layman - Property Issues Archive
Blog Reformed Pastor EPC Pastor - Church Planter
BlogFull Court PresbyPastor Lance's Blog to his Congregation about PUP etc.
BlogClassical PresbyterianBlogging for the Reformed Resistance in the PC(USA)
BlogAnderson SpeakCommentary on Faith, Christianity, and the PCUSA by Noel K. Anderson
BlogBayou Christian Bill Crawford, Pastor First Presbyterian Church of Thiboduax
Blogblog 137Pastor Dave Moody, Trinity United Presbyterian Church, Sparta, IL.
BlogTruth in Love NetworkA group of Presbyterian elders who are concerned with the direction of the PC(USA).
BlogMark D. RobertsProfessor & Senior Pastor of Irvine Presbyterian Church, CA
BlogInstitute on Religion and Democracy25 years of working to reform the social and political witness of American churches
Blog The Berkley Blog James D. Berkley, Director of Presbyterian Action
BlogTom's ThoughtsTom Gray, Co-Pastor, Kirk of the Hills, Tulsa, OK
WebStand to ReasonChristian Ambassadors for defense for classical Christianity
WebPresbyterian ForumWorking for reformation through overt political action
WebWiki:PresbyterianWikipedia's Presbyterian Overview
WebKirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OKChurch in Tulsa, OK - Fighting for its Property.
WebKirk's Legal Docs (pdfs)Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK
WebKirk Docs (text)Kirk Of The Hills docs, Converted to text
PDFLegal Strategy #1PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave
PDFPresbyteries Process #2PC(USA)'s Process for churches wanting to leave
DocSecret Document #3News about a third secret document
PicPresby Chart 1Chart showing the history of breakups and mergers (standard)
WebPresby Chart 2Presbyterian Church History-Lesson 13-An Overview of Contemporary American Presbyterianism
WebPresby Chart 3 (text)History of the Presbyterian Church (USA)
Web Presby Chart 4 Denomination Family Trees (Interactive)
WebPresby Chart 5 ARPC Denomination Family Tree
WebMaps of ReligionsList of Many Maps of 2000 Census Data on Religion
PicMap: CountyMap of Denominations by County
Pic Map: Presbyterian Map of Presbyterian's as percentage of Population
Web ARDA Association of Religion Data Archives
PPTReport on PUPNew Wineskin's Report on PUP
PDFReport on PUPNew Wineskin's Report on PUP
PDFBook of OrderOfficial PDF Copy of Book of Order for PC(USA)
PDFBook of ConfessionsOfficial PDF Copy of Book of Confessions for PC(USA)
WebAdvisory OpinionsPC(USA) Stated Clerk Advisory Opinions (not binding, nor authoritative)
WebPC(USA) Constitutional MusingsOffice of Constitutional Services - Unofficial Thoughts
WebPC(USA) Amicus Curiae BriefsStated Clerk & AC on Litigation - Friend of the Court Briefs
WebGAPJC PC(USA)PC(USA) General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission Decisions
WebPension Board PC(USA)PC(USA) Board of Pensions
WebFoundation PC(USA)Presbyterian Foundation, New Covenant Trust and New Covenant Mutual Funds
WebPC(USA) BOO AnnotatedPC(USA) Book of Order - Annotated
WebPresbyterian CoalitionWorking for a Revitalized Church
WebConfessing Church Movement1,314/434,697
WebNew WineskinsNew Wineskins Association of Churches(2001)

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