Friday, December 21, 2007

Heartland Presbytery Called Meeting Summary

On December 18, 2007, Heartland Presbytery had a called meeting to work through business brought before it by the Committee on Ministry.

The Moderator of the Committee on Ministry, Rev. Brian Ellison and the Moderator of the Administrative Commission, Rev. Leslie King made brief presentations before each motion (1a, 1b and 2). Rev. Kirk Johnston presented following their presentations. Each motion was thoroughly discussed and the presbytery was led in prayer before each vote. The following motions were approved:

1a.That the presbytery concur with the Administrative Commission and Committee on Ministry that the Reverend A. Kirk Johnston has "after consultation and notice, persisted in a work disapproved" by the presbytery and presume that he has renounced jurisdiction (G-6.0702), effective November 18, 2007, directing the Stated Clerk to remove his name from the roll and take such other actions of an administrative character as may be required by the Constitution.

Vote results: 131 for Motion 1a and 35 against Motion 1a.

1b. That the presbytery concur with the Administrative Commission and Committee on Ministry that the Reverend A. Kirk Johnston has "accepted membership of any character in another denomination" (G-11.0416) since November 18, 2007, directing the Stated Clerk to delete his name from the roll, and take such other actions of an administrative character as may be required by the Constitution. The presbytery proceeds in this action with a sad heart and offers its prayers for God’s grace and blessing in the future ministry of A. Kirk Johnston.

Vote results: 148 for Motion 1b and 10 against Motion 1b as amended

(The second sentence was added as an amendment.)

2. That the presbytery determine that any further pastoral or ministerial activities by A. Kirk Johnston (G-6.0200) in connection with "Lighthouse Presbyterian Church of Paola" or any other worshipping community within the geographic bounds of Heartland Presbytery--including, but not limited to, preaching, leading worship, or the administration of the sacraments of baptism or the Lord's Supper--is disapproved.

Vote results: 108 for Motion 2 and 39 against Motion 2

From the floor, Rev. Brian Ellison, Moderator of Committee on Ministry moved that the previously adopted motions 1a and 1b both be amended so that effective date in each motion is December 18, 2007.

Votes results: 143 for and 0 against

The presbytery did their work with faithfulness and diligence, listening to the Committee on Ministry and the Administrative Commission’s report and Rev. Kirk Johnston’s responses to those presentations. Heartland Presbytery Moderator Sunok Pai led the presbytery in prayer and song prior to adjournment.

Rev. A. Kirk Johnston has been removed from the roll of Presbyterian Church (USA) ministers of the Word and Sacrament effective December 18, 2007, based on G-6.0702 and G-11.0416.

Minutes for this meeting will not be released until the presbytery has approved them at their next stated meeting.

Vote counts for motions 1A and 1B have been corrected in this posting. 12/19/07 3:20 p.m.

Wednesday, December 19, 2007

St. Paul’s Presbyterian Church votes to leave PC(USA)

St. Paul’s Presbyterian Church: 132 E Union St., Somerset, PA 15501 (No Website)
  • 320 Members, Weather produce low turnout.
  • Pastor Keith Fink: No Comment
  • Vote: 173-10 to leave to EPC
  • Redstone Presbytery will next meet in March
  • It must determine whether the church can keep its property and to dismiss.
  • The presbytery includes 85 churches
  • “The congregation has been discussing this subject for approximately six months,” Elder Linc Van Sickel said.
  • They may merge with St. Francis-in-the-Fields Episcopal Church, if it leaves too.
News Coverage:

Monday, December 17, 2007

How to Handle the Troubles in PC(USA)?

I have been reflecting on Pastor Lyn's blog on PCUSA Troubles back on Aug 10, 2007 again. The latest trouble with Heartland, called my attention to her blog again. She is not interested in PC(USA) just serving Jesus. So I decided to try and organize the different viewpoints on how to respond to the troubles. For more resources see New Wineskins paper. First what are the troubles:
  • Confusion
  • Idolatry
  • Wrangling
  • Peace, Unity and Purity
  • Bureaucracy
  • Religious Pluralism
  • Crumbling Standards
Second, how does one respond? Moderation is often taught in the Bible and yet Revelation, speaks of spitting out the luke-warm. I wonder where Pastor Lyn stands in this range?

Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD)

  • Emulate the three monkeys: Do nothing, Say Nothing, Hear Nothing
  • Do Nothing: do not attend Presbytery or New Wineskins, or Confessing, or other groups.
  • Say Nothing: no matter what PC(USA) does, do not interfere.
  • Hear Nothing: Do not read Layman, or any blogs on the troubles.
Indifference: Go about Jesus's work, ignore the troubles.
  • Jesus threw out the money changers, etc. - Should be a house of Prayer.
  • Jesus criticized the leaders for poor leadership.
  • Too much time on troubles, not enough for Jesus.
  • The often quoted, "...then they came for me"
  • If do nothing to correct a wrong, I am guilty of enabling the wrong do-ers.
Stay and Fight: Try to bring PCUSA back to bible.
  • Be salt to PC(USA).
  • I was born Presbyterian and I want to die Presbyterian! (nevermind that PC(USA) is was born in 1983 and is only partially related to the two previous denominations.)
Leave PC(USA)
  • Jesus telling the Apostles to shake the dust from their feet.

Out for Revenge?

Rev. Parker T. Williamson (editor emeritus of the Presbyterian Lay Committee) has a commentary on the Paola First Presbyterian Church vs. Heartland Presbytery. The article show that Brian D. Ellison (Moderator of the COM) may be out for Revenge against the pastor at First.

Are these Google results all for the same Rev. Ellison? If they are the same person, it paints a very dark picture for Heartland.

Tuesday, December 11, 2007

PRAYER REQUEST - Disaster in Oklahoma

An Ice storm of record setting size struck Oklahoma Sunday and Monday. I was able to tour the Tulsa area Tuesday. Almost every tree has damage, many of them only have trunks left. Power is out to most areas. I had much difficulty if finding a fast food place to eat, the few that had power, also had long lines. One Wal-Mart, I visited had no oil lamps, no candles and huge crowds. The few gas stations that had power, had lines into the street. Almost every stop light was out. You would get to an intersection with working lights and find that only one corner had power. At one shopping center, the "mall" had power and the out-parcels where closed. On Sunday, it was the opposite. Some of the homes will not have power for as much as 10 days. OKC may be even worst. The State has declared a state of emergency in most areas. Most of the hospitals in Tulsa are on emergency generators and will only take emergency patients!

Please pray for the victims(no homes), the stores (no income), the workers fixing power, phone, cable in the cold and working long hours and far away from home. UPDATE: We should also pray for Police, Fire (many house fires due to candles), EMS, Road crews, Tree crews. They are working many long hours in the cold as well. 4,000 electric crews have come in from out of the area to help. Over 20 people have died in the area and many more are hurting.

Monday, December 10, 2007

Timberridge Property Battle Timeline

Disaffiliate VS Dismissal Layman has through coverage of the court case between Timberridge Presbyterian Church in McDonough, Ga. and the Presbytery of Greater Atlanta. Documents:

Wednesday, December 5, 2007

Fair Oaks PC and FPC Roseville, CA Dismissed by Presbytery.

From the Fair Oaks PC website:

Sacramento Presbytery Affirms Agreement

"The Sacramento Presbytery, in its regular meeting of December 2, 2007, held in Chico, voted to affirm the terms of the negotiated settlement recently reached by teams from FOPC and the Presbytery. The vote, 146-18, gives the go ahead for FOPC to be dismissed from the the PC(USA), with its property, and affiliate with the Evangelical Presbyterian Church as of January 1, 2008. In a similar vote (153-11) the Sacramento Presbytery also dismissed First Presbyterian Church of Roseville. The next step is for official documents to be signed and filed by the parties. Please be in prayer that the process will continue to be gracious and smoothly reach a positive conclusion on January 1."

From the Sacramento Presbytery website, the proposed agreements.

  • Fair Oaks: $250,000 over 10 years
  • Roseville: $160,000 over 8 years
  • Transfer Pastor's to EPC or labor out of bonds
  • Roseville: Not terminate Pastors for one year
  • Drop Lawsuits.
  • Contact Members asking if they want to stay in PC(USA)
  • No Endowments in PC(USA)'s name
  • No Debt naming PC(USA)

Tuesday, December 4, 2007

EOP vs Kirk update

EOP has spent $133,058 this year on legal expenses as of Sept 30, 2007

Thursday, November 29, 2007

Kirk of the Hills - PRAYER REQUEST! Updated!

Prayer Request: Tom Gray is having surgery Monday (see his blog for more info). Please pray for him and his family during this difficult time. UPDATE: Surgery went well! Over in 1/2 the original time. Praise The Lord!

There have been lots of paper exchange in the Kirk vs. EOP/PCUSA lawsuit. I have a list of the court actions on another page or the official court list in legaleze. The latest action is Kirk trying to force EOP and PCUSA to supply documents, and information. The next court date is Dec 20, 2007 at 9 am. The agenda is to decide if EOP and PCUSA have to answer Kirk. Originally scheduled for Sept 20, the wheels of justice do turn slowly.

Unfortunately, Oklahoma Courts are only half way into digital. Unlike Federal Courts and some state courts, you can not download the documents even for a fee. You must go in person and pay $1 a page for a hardcopy and kill some more trees. I hope they go to electronic filling and retreval and no fee. A closed court is a court subject to corruption.

The Tulsa world had an article today, it says nothing new.

Tuesday, November 27, 2007

Greater Alanta Presbytery Overreacts! UPDATED!

Another Presbytery goes off the deep end in response to a church's actions. According to a Layman Article, the Greater Atlanta Presbytery COM wants to form an AC will FULL powers, because the Session of Timberridge Presbyterian Church has sued to have its property declared to be its own. The COM report is in the Handbook(pg 21) for the next Presbytery meeting called for Nov 27, 2007 (today as of this writing). They also want to know any links or attendance to New Wineskins! This reminds me of the Hollywood Communist Blacklists, but from the left instead of the right.

UPDATE: The church voted to leave IMMEDIATELY on Nov 25, 2007 (205-14). The pastor has renounced the jurisdiction of the PCUSA.

The church was founded in 1829 and has about 350 members according to their own website. They appear to be a very conservative church. I have added them to my list of churches.

As a side note, the Presbytery website state that minutes will no longer be posted. Those of us who are paranoid, might think they have something to hide. They do have the Presbytery Sermon Transcript: "Postmodern. Post Denominational. But not Post Presbyterian"

ALSO their front page has a blurb on peacemaking (anti-war), maybe they should apply this to their dealings with this church.

In their previous meeting they heard a report on Hanbit and Smyrna Administrative Commissions. They appear to be want AC's are really to be used for, not political hatchet jobs.

  • Smyrna AC requested by Session and Interim Pastor.
  • Hanbit AC - church only has Parrish Associate?

Sunday, November 18, 2007

Weekend News

Blood money or a Good Compromise?

Quincy FPC has been released by its Presbytery (newspaper). The new church will pay $196,000 and drop claims to the current name. The Presbytery will release the church to EPC with its property. Both sides will drop claims for claims, damages, or demands. This is 10% of current value. THE question is this Blood money or the proper thing to do?

Friday, November 16, 2007

New Church in Paola, KS

Due to the outrageous, behavior of the Presbytery of the Heartland, The former members of FPC of Paola have started a new church called Lighthouse Presbyterian Church!

Newspaper: New Presbyterian church organized

Response from around the web:

From the PC(USA) viewpoint:

Tuesday, November 13, 2007

Money Rumors from Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery

I usually don't publish rumors, but these came from an elder attending EOP meetings. I will continue to search for confirmation.
  • EOP was out of money.
  • GAC "donated" $30,000 to EOP to keep up the Kirk fight.
  • EOP ask each minister to donate $50 to keep up the Kirk fight.
According to Sept 2007 Packet, EOP has spent YTD $67,388, thru June 2007 on legal fees.

UPDATE: The packet also shows that EOP expects a tithe (10%) anytime a church is sold.

Sunday, November 11, 2007

Presbytery of the Heartland is Heartless - UPDATED! 2X

This story from KC Community News website, proves once again the the Presbytery of the Heartland is Heartless:

"Leaders of Paola church asked to resign from session."

UPDATE: I found the AC report (PDF) on the Presbytery website, it states:

"Further, the Administrative Commission is addressing the issue of whether the current Session of the First Presbyterian Church of Paola may remain the Session pursuant to the applicable provisions of the Book of Order. The Administrative Commission has requested that the current Session resign. Absent such resignation, the Administrative Commission has scheduled a hearing with the Session of First Presbyterian Church of Paola for November 12th, 2007."

UPDATE 2: Blogs respond to the news and more BAD news! Classical Presbyterian: Two weeks to get out! Here is what Kirk Johnston, the pastor of the Paola congregation told the New Wineskins prayer team: "Prayer is needed. As for Paola we are not going to resist the presbytery any further. We cannot bring ourselves to open battle over property in our situation. We do not wish to let them goad us into choosing property over witness to Jesus. Please pray that conversely we do not trade anger or resentment for it either. We are simply trying our best to be faithful, to do that which leads to His praise and we have to suffer, move etc... we will do it out of love for Him. But we need to be covered in prayer to stay under His purpose. Your request and your prayers are a deep blessing. God is good - ALL the time."

Thursday, November 8, 2007

News from around the web.

I attended a Eastern Orthodox Church as part of my son's "comparative religion" class. The father said they consider the Roman Catholic church is the first Protestant denomination to break away!

Tuesday, November 6, 2007

Nov 4 2007 News

  • Tom is back on his blog! Welcome back!
  • Peter's Creek votes to leave w/o Presbytery permission. (see list)
  • Changed the format on the list again!
  • Working to normalize the entries, the older ones are very out of date with the format.
  • Our move to the real site may happen soon. Support emailed me to set up a time for the move!
  • Found some entries in Hollywood that should have been in Torrance! (titles, instead of dates, do help!)
  • When we move I want to make the list a database. Then the list can be sorted by the viewer by just a click, Items to click on: Number, Name, Presby, Synod, To, Location, Status, founded.
  • New site would automaticly generate statistics on the churches: Membership totals, status totals, Presbytery totals, dollar totals.
  • New site would also auto generate the html for the table for easy format changes.
  • How about a Hide/Show story option - for a condensed table!
COMMENTS on new site plans PLEASE!

Friday, November 2, 2007

What can replace PCUSA Mission Yearbook?

2008 PCUSA Mission Yearbook is available now

'Where two or more are gathered' is theme of 116th book. My men's prayer group "reads" this every week. Every quarter we rotate who read's it. We often view it as a "joke". The stories tell very little of real use or they are very political instead of Christian. "every" country is included whether PCUSA has any real presence or not. What are some of the EPC groups using as a replacement?

Monday, October 29, 2007

News Summary

The layman has so much new news today, that it was hard for me to grasp it all. So here is a summary of the actions of Presbytery of Western North Carolina:

FPC Baton Rouge votes to Leave

First Presbyterian Church of Baton Rouge voted 425-61 to leave PC(USA) for EPC on Sunday Oct 28, 2007. This was covered by the Advocate (newspaper) online. I also want to call you attention to a very well written letter on the Presbytery of Southern Louisiana website by the General Presbyter, Rev. Dr. Alan D. Cutter. His brick-by-brick description of the problems of PC(USA) is one of the best summaries I have seen. I have saved it, in case it fades from the web.

Sunday, October 28, 2007

Hudson Presbyterian Church Owns Property

The website says that the court has ruled that the property belongs to the local church and its 500 members and is NOT in trust for PC(USA)! Eastminster Presbytery is considering filling objections to the ruling. The Hudson congregation voted 166-61 on Nov. 5, 2006. For a member's blog check out this site.

Heritage PC Houston, TX, session calls Congregation meeting.

Heritage Presbyterian church's session has called for a congregational meeting to vote on dismissal from PC(USA) to EPC/NW. They and the Presbytery of the New Covenant appear to be handling this in a Christian manner. But I see rumblings from certain people in the presbytery. Hopefully , those who choose to follow the example of Jesus will prevail. My prayers will go out for both sides. This brings my list to 40 churches taking action after PUP.

Friday, October 26, 2007

Website Updated

  • Cleanup of info on congregrations split from Hendersonville
  • Added Google map of Churches on the list.
  • Added Google map of Churches in EPC.
  • Church List Moved to new page I am blogging too much and the page is crowded.
  • Added links from the churches mentioned to entry on churchlist. Note: on my browser, I have to scroll down a line or two to see the entry.
  • Added links to latest letters from Montreat and Hendersonville (Thanks Layman)
  • Found a presbytery report of past due per-capita, so I created a graphic of the data. Some of the drops in past-due are due to forgiving of the debt by the presbytery.

Thursday, October 25, 2007

Timeline of Presbyterian Mischief

  • Sept 2005 - Process for Presbyteries draft
  • Dec 2005 - Legal Strategy paper revised.
  • Mar 6 2006 - Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery files affidavits file on every church in presbytery.
  • Apr 12, 2006 - EOP affidavits revealed.
  • Aug 9, 2006 - Louisville papers revealed.
  • Aug 15, 2006 - Kirk of the Hills (Tulsa,OK) session votes to disaffiliate.
  • Aug 18, 2006 - 3rd paper "revealed"
  • Aug 30, 2006 - Kirk's congregation votes to disaffiliate.
It looks like the whole property mess started in Tulsa, OK! Why? Here are some possibilities:
  • Fear of Kirk of the Hills leaving due to New Wineskins.
  • EOP's General Presbyter is dedicated to PC (USA).
  • Louisville (Stated Clerk) talked EOP into the affidavits.
  • Budget worries from loss of churches.
  • Fear of mass exodus.
  • EOP has one light church.
Comments Please!

Tuesday, October 23, 2007

More News

Monday, October 22, 2007

Friday, October 19, 2007

Beverly Heights Presbyterian Church Dismissed

According to the Pittsburgh Post Gazette Newspaper website Beverly Heights Presbyterian Church (267 members) was dismissed by the Pittsburgh Presbytery by a vote of 174-73-2. Beverly Heights voted on April 22, 2007 to requess dismissal by a vote of 195-4. The Presbytery website has the dismissal agreeement and a FAQ about the dismissal. According to the Oct presbytery packet, BH "owed" about $77,000 in back per-capita (2000-2007). Interestingly, for the entire presbytery the total for 2004+ thru 2007 is
  • $1,548,200 expected
  • $735,025 paid (47%)
  • $813,174 unpaid
The conditions listed are:
  • Promised not to sue each other.
  • Church to pay $250,000 over the next ten years w/lien to guarantee.
  • Church forfeit of trust fund of $46,655
  • Church gets to keep land and name ($1,160,100)

Thursday, October 18, 2007

A Review of a Critic

I gathered some information on Carol Joan Schaef, a member of Memorial Park in McCandless, PA. She seems to accuse EPC of many things while condemning EPC for accusing PCUSA of many things. Her man objection to changing denominations is "personal pain following church separation." I have not found where she defends the changes at PCUSA. After reading all of her comments, I have little respect for her viewpoints or her actions. The decision has been made by the vast majority: 951-93. It is time for those in the minority to either accept the decision or to graciously move on to another church. One of the members of our church left for another PCUSA church and unlike others, he did so graciously and did not speak ill of those he left behind. I still have respect for him, even when I do not agree with some of his opinions. This is the sign of a true Christian. Here is the list of her blogs/letters. Unfortunately, Layman does not allow a direct link to individual letters.

Wednesday, October 17, 2007

Londonderry Presbyterian Church

I recommend you read the letters to the editor at Layman Online about Londonderry Presbyterian Church, they give both sides of the split. I may be prejudiced but I see very bad behavior on the part of the PCUSA writers, newspaper and very thoughtful and prayerful consideration on the church side. Unfortunately, this same behavior is playing out, over and over and over again. It seems every split that occurs is meet with deceit, power-graping, and greed. I am still ashamed of my own presbytery actions (Eastern Oklahoma) against Kirk of the Hills and every single church in the Presbytery (affidavits).

Thursday, October 4, 2007

Is Joan Gray living in a different dimension?

A Christian Post news story quotes Moderator Joan Gray, as saying "Anger, Mistrust Has Abated"!

Another snippet from the new story: "Over a year later, church officials do not feel a mass exodus of congregations is as threatening today." My list is up to 35 from the time of PUP approval, June 2006. A few more started the exodus just before PUP, that I wonder if they were related.

Does Joan really believe this? Does she just say this for good PR? Is she saying this to bolster the fight? Start Trek did many shows on alternative realities, I did not think Joan actually would prove it.

Wednesday, October 3, 2007

Why I left PCUSA!

Not me (yet), but this blog (Recovering Presbyterian-now ex-presbyterian) gives a excellent explanation why more and more are leaving PCUSA and have decided that "stay and fight" is no longer a viable option.

Thursday, September 27, 2007

Form of Government Changes is Fogy!

According to many reviewers of the new FOG task force report, It is a big, big mess! Missing major parts, major changes that will cause major headaches. Not to mention the fact that they are not following the rules for the task force as put forth by the GA. IRD

Friday, September 21, 2007

It's ALL About The Property!

Please visit today's Blog (Sept 20) by the Reformed Pastor. The seal on his site proves that a picture is worth a thousand words. This matches my evaluation of the attitude of many presbyteries and PCUSA. (ed: I redid the link to point to the specific blog entry, There were too many new ones)

Thursday, August 9, 2007

A Thorough Summary of PCUSA

Google found a web blog with a very good summary of the PC(USA) troubles way back to PCA and EPC splits.

Monday, July 30, 2007

Presbyterian Pastors Expect Denominational Breakup

Crosswalk has an article "Presbyterian Pastors Expect Denominational Breakup". The article states the source is "The Washington Times", but I could not find it on the website. The say the survey is from PCUSA, but I have not found that either. The excerpt contains an inaccuracy, I don't think it was rescinded, just made "optional":

At its July assembly, the liberal wing of the Presbyterian Church (USA) led a 317-208 vote rescinding a clergy "fidelity and chastity" rule that, among other things, bars active homosexuals from ordination.

Thursday, July 26, 2007

Layman's New Pages

Layman has a new set of web pages about the Exodus of churches from the PCUSA. I will have to decide whether those page are good enough that I will not need to maintain! I see room for improvement, but is it enough?

Answer: After looking at the charts, I find them lacking much of what is in my version. So I will continue to maintain them. When I move to my new site, they will be even better. I plan to allow the user to sort the tables at will.

Wednesday, July 25, 2007

Three Tulsa Churches to share building

Three Tulsa Churches to share building of Southminster Presbyterian.
  • St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church
  • Southminster Presbyterian
  • The Church of St. Giles
The Little Light House will take over the property of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church to expand. St. Andrew's building no longer serves its needs.

St. Giles, a congregation for handicapped people and their families, originally meet at Kirk of the Hills, which left the PCUSA.

Original Article from the Tulsa World.

Friday, July 6, 2007

Olivet EPC Evansville, IN

Out of nowhere, (to me) up pops, Olivet EPC, which is now being sued by what was its Presbytery (Ohio Valley) and its Synod (Lincoln Trails) over the church property.

The good news is that the Presbytery, wants to be open and above board and has filed all of their documents on their website for review and discussion. So lets talk!

From the press release of the Presbytery: "a substantial number of the members joined other Evansville area churches". Facts instead of conclusions would be helpful. How many members out of what ever is the total membership joined other churches? What was the vote totals? yea-nay-abstain?

They have already dismissed the congregation (people?), and the minister. There is just the fight over the property, as always, including checking accounts? They tried negotiation, now they want court ordered mediation, or the courts to decided. Thing are even more complicated as they have loans from both the Presbytery and the Synod. They have even tried to drag the EPC into the fray. The EPC never owns the local church.

"The Constitution of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) vests the title for all church property occupied by local congregations in its presbyteries. The United States Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled in favor of upholding provisions of this type in church property disputes"

The Presbytery talks about legal owners, yet "only" cites the Constitution of the PCUSA for its side. The PCUSA is not the government and may not pass laws. All legal action must abide by state and US laws. So we must refer to the titles and articles of incorporation. It also brings up the US Supreme Court, without bringing up neutral principles, which is the latest ruling. There is much legal debate about PCUSA is a hierarchical church or a voluntary association.

Thursday, June 28, 2007

More Legal Documents

I have found that Ohio, has a website with all of the court documents for each case. I have posted a link to the court, clerk, and case number for Hudson Presbyterian Church. To see the documents directly:
  • click the the CLERK link
  • click "Records Search" buried in the header of the page
  • click accept the terms
  • click civil
  • click search by Court case number
  • then enter the court case number: CV-2006-09-6162
  • click on "Dockets" at top of screen, to see ALL of the documents.
  • Success!

What is in a Name?

I sent an email to Christian Post, asking them to not use the phrase "Dissident Presbyterians" when referring to those trying to leave the PCUSA.

I explained that it was a matter of perspective who is the dissident. We who want to leave, believe the leaders are the dissidents. The leadership is the one who is attempting to force change in the denomination without the permission of the local churches. As an example, the chastity clause, passed by 70%-30%.

Today I notice they have changed the title of recent articles by replacing dissident with conservative. A friend of mine pointed out that a better "label" would be moderate, as we are the majority (70%) and not a fringe minority that some associate with "conservative".

Thursday, June 21, 2007

PCUSA or Else!

Heartland Presbytery has voted an Administration Commision with unprecedented powers. Either the AC or the Council can declare any church to be in schism and remove the pastors, session, take over the property of any church under their jurisdiction. The supporters say this is in response to pastors out of control and using "illegal" means to leave the denomination. Detractors says this is suppressing dialog, and in violation of the Book of Order. Leaving the denomination is an option called for in the BOO, so how can using this option be "illegal?" I agree with others that this is too similar to the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC or HCUA) (1938–1975)!

Wednesday, April 25, 2007

Presbyterians drop Montreat church (sort-of)

From the story by Leslie Boyd:

  • Presbytery of Western North Carolina dismissed Montreat Presbyterian Church from the Presbyterian USA denomination Tuesday.
  • The 350-member church will not be allowed to keep its name.
  • The property it holds was not part of the decision.
  • The governing body also voted to create a “continuing church,” made up of the 27 (8%) members who wanted to stay in the denomination. That continuing church will keep the name.

Monday, April 16, 2007

Charges of apostasy being leveled in an unspoken way

My summary from the Story According to the Rev. Albert G. "Pete" Peery Jr. of First Presbyterian Church in Asheville, North Carolina the churches leaving are accusing PCUSA of apostasy (renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to one's former religion: Wikipedia). Presbyterian Church (USA) has
  1. Abandoned the essentials of the faith - "Allowing scruples to be considered by ordaining bodies"
  2. No longer abides by the authority of God's word.
  3. Declared that there are other ways to salvation besides Jesus the Christ.
I believe most of those who are leaving or ready to leave would agree that these charges against the PCUSA are valid. Take the poll on this webpage to register your opinion!

Friday, March 30, 2007

Are ministers of departing churches vested?

From the Board of Pensions WEBSITE: A member's credits are non-forfeitable (vested) as soon as
  • the Member completes three years of eligible service. Employment by an eligible church employing organization for at least 20 hours a week counts toward vesting even if the employee was not enrolled in the Benefits Plan. Full-time attendance at seminary also counts for ordained ministers who serve in a validated ministry of the church following ordination.
  • the Member attains age 65.
  • the employer withdraws from the Plan.
  • the Pension Plan terminates.

Friday, February 16, 2007

PC(USA) Troubles

I have not found a list of churches that have left or want to leave the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). So I am starting one. Constructive comments welcomed. The split into PCA/EPC/PC(USA) is the biggest missing piece of the pie, that I am still searching the web.

Why Split? This quote came from the PC(USA) website: "Much of the displeasure voiced by New Wineskins congregations centers around a belief that the PC(USA) has become consumed with institutional preservation and lost sight of doctrinal integrity."

Why this website? This list is show the size of the problem, as many Churches, Sessions, all the way up to OGA, want to deny there is a problem, and to cover it up. The use FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt), by calling those who want to leave, names.

Usage: This information, including formatting/html,..., may be used by other sites, without limit. In Fact, I hope somebody would take over, with more time on their hands.

BTW: I looked at EOP's yearly church prayer list, Kirk of the Hills is missing, so I guess that makes it official, EOP no longer considers them part of the presbytery. I am ashamed by the actions of my Presbytery (EOP) against Kirk. I have considered renouncing my Elder vows, as a friend at our mother church has done.

Presbylaw temporary site.

Announcement Policy

If you have comments, corrections, or updates to this website please email me: PRESBYLAW webmaster or leave a comment.

If you wish to make a church announcement of a vote or lawsuit, I will need to verify. You either need to send it via a email that I can publicly verify belongs to the church, or point to a website with a news story, or official church website. Contacting the layman may be a better route.


FEED PCUSA List Feed Atom Feed of Blog Posts
EMAIL PRESBYLAW webmaster Comments, corrections, updates
NEWS PRESBYWEB: Viewpoint PCUSA Property Trust History Disputed By Jeffrey C. Francis
PDF Memorial Park on Seperation Bulletin Insert for May 6th
Web Kirk's Legal Docs (pdfs) Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK
PDF PCUSA Articles of Incorporation Churches can't be a member of the PCUSA according to its own articles of incorporation
PDF Legal Strategy #1PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave
PDF Presbyteries Process #2 PC(USA)'s Process for churches wanting to leave
Doc Secret Document #3 News about a third secret document
PDF Process Administrative Review Process from the Synod of the Northeast
PDF Presbytery Of New Covenant Process For Addressing Churches Seeking To Withdraw From PC(USA)
PDF Wabash Valley Presbytery Separatist Task Force
Doc PC(USA): Constitutional Musings: Note 12 Responding Pastorally to Troubled Churches
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 02 Dissent and Defiance
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 03 Administrative Commission
PDF PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 11 Church Property
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 17 Schism
Doc PC(USA): Advisory Opinions: Note 19 Implementing the Trust Clause for the Unity of the Church
Web Presbyterian Outlook Statement about resources prepared by the Constitutional Services Department and the Office of Legal Services at the General Assembly level of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
Web Stated Clerk, GAC chief urge churches not to defect from PC(USA) We are better together in Christ's Unity

PC(USA) News Service

Presbyterian Google News

IRD Presbyterian News

The Christian Post


Denomination NameParentLocationSizeYear
United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. - UPCUSA(N) PUSA & UPCNA New York City8,909/2,342,4411958-1983
Presbyterian Church in United States (Confederate) - PCUS(S) Presbyterian Church in United States Atlanta, Ga.4,250/814,9311861-1983
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) PC(U.S.A) UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) Louisville, Kentucky11,596/3,122,213June 10, 1983
Evangelical Presbyterian Church EPC UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) Livonia, MI67/19,000 (1982)1980/1981
Presbyterian Church of America PCA PCUS(S) Lawrenceville, GA260/41,232May 18, 1973
Orthodox Presbyterian Church Presbyterian U.S.A. Willow Grove, PA 300/20,417 1936
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church Associate Presbytery/Reformed Presbytery Greenville, SC 250/40,392 1782



News Crosswalk The Intersection of Faith and Life
News Church Report National business news magazine
NewsPC(USA) NewsPresbyterian Church (U.S.A.) News Service
NewsSave Hollywood PresLinks to news about PC(USA) Troubles
NewsThe Layman OnlineTHE News Source about PC(USA)
NewsLayman - propertyThe Layman - Property Issues Archive
Blog Reformed Pastor EPC Pastor - Church Planter
BlogFull Court PresbyPastor Lance's Blog to his Congregation about PUP etc.
BlogClassical PresbyterianBlogging for the Reformed Resistance in the PC(USA)
BlogAnderson SpeakCommentary on Faith, Christianity, and the PCUSA by Noel K. Anderson
BlogBayou Christian Bill Crawford, Pastor First Presbyterian Church of Thiboduax
Blogblog 137Pastor Dave Moody, Trinity United Presbyterian Church, Sparta, IL.
BlogTruth in Love NetworkA group of Presbyterian elders who are concerned with the direction of the PC(USA).
BlogMark D. RobertsProfessor & Senior Pastor of Irvine Presbyterian Church, CA
BlogInstitute on Religion and Democracy25 years of working to reform the social and political witness of American churches
Blog The Berkley Blog James D. Berkley, Director of Presbyterian Action
BlogTom's ThoughtsTom Gray, Co-Pastor, Kirk of the Hills, Tulsa, OK
WebStand to ReasonChristian Ambassadors for defense for classical Christianity
WebPresbyterian ForumWorking for reformation through overt political action
WebWiki:PresbyterianWikipedia's Presbyterian Overview
WebKirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OKChurch in Tulsa, OK - Fighting for its Property.
WebKirk's Legal Docs (pdfs)Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK
WebKirk Docs (text)Kirk Of The Hills docs, Converted to text
PDFLegal Strategy #1PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave
PDFPresbyteries Process #2PC(USA)'s Process for churches wanting to leave
DocSecret Document #3News about a third secret document
PicPresby Chart 1Chart showing the history of breakups and mergers (standard)
WebPresby Chart 2Presbyterian Church History-Lesson 13-An Overview of Contemporary American Presbyterianism
WebPresby Chart 3 (text)History of the Presbyterian Church (USA)
Web Presby Chart 4 Denomination Family Trees (Interactive)
WebPresby Chart 5 ARPC Denomination Family Tree
WebMaps of ReligionsList of Many Maps of 2000 Census Data on Religion
PicMap: CountyMap of Denominations by County
Pic Map: Presbyterian Map of Presbyterian's as percentage of Population
Web ARDA Association of Religion Data Archives
PPTReport on PUPNew Wineskin's Report on PUP
PDFReport on PUPNew Wineskin's Report on PUP
PDFBook of OrderOfficial PDF Copy of Book of Order for PC(USA)
PDFBook of ConfessionsOfficial PDF Copy of Book of Confessions for PC(USA)
WebAdvisory OpinionsPC(USA) Stated Clerk Advisory Opinions (not binding, nor authoritative)
WebPC(USA) Constitutional MusingsOffice of Constitutional Services - Unofficial Thoughts
WebPC(USA) Amicus Curiae BriefsStated Clerk & AC on Litigation - Friend of the Court Briefs
WebGAPJC PC(USA)PC(USA) General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission Decisions
WebPension Board PC(USA)PC(USA) Board of Pensions
WebFoundation PC(USA)Presbyterian Foundation, New Covenant Trust and New Covenant Mutual Funds
WebPC(USA) BOO AnnotatedPC(USA) Book of Order - Annotated
WebPresbyterian CoalitionWorking for a Revitalized Church
WebConfessing Church Movement1,314/434,697
WebNew WineskinsNew Wineskins Association of Churches(2001)

Usage: This information, including formatting/html,..., may be used by other sites, without limit. In Fact, I hope somebody would take over, with more time on their hands.

Blog Archive