Sunday, October 19, 2008

Kirk congregation votes to buy property! 508-483

Kirk vote 10/19:
For buying property - 508
Against - 483

A Kirk member

ED: As my wife says: "We're screwed" - the small churchs will never be able to leave.

9 comments:

Anonymous said...

I voted against accepting the settlement for this very reason. It is my hope that the Kirk leadership might consider assisting some other Oklahoma churches in leaving the PC(USA) so that there may be an appealable case presented to the OK Supreme Court so that Cimmaron can be reconsidered.

Jim said...

For my local situation, I probably switch to the Wesleyan church.

Anonymous said...

The Kirk vote was very close, and the only reason the vote (by 25) was to buy the property is because EOP poured on the pressure right before the vote.

EOP dropped a couple of parts of the lawsuit to speed up the final judgment. This would have allowed them to evict the Kirk congregation. They told us they would do this and start a new church in the Kirk facility.

Many Kirk members (myself included)as well as the session changed their minds more than once about how they would vote.

If I were in a church that wanted to leave the PCUSA, I would encourage the session to embark on a building or remodeling project and mortgage the church facility as much as possible. Then the congregation could walk away and leave the presbytery with the mortgage payments.

If the Kirk had done this EOP wouldn't have wanted the property. They never wanted the property in the first place--it was all about the money.

All is not lost for you. Remember that with God all things are possible. If there are enough disenchanted with the PCUSA in your area, maybe you can all get together and start an Evangelical Presbyterian Church.

A Kirk member

Toby Brown said...

"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you."

We all know that this money will not do EOP any good anyway. Blood money is not blessed by the Lord nor is extortion. Let them have their Mammon and let the Kirk have Christ. I think we know who wins that one.

As to the national implications, only in OK and FL are the courts giving over to the presbyteries. Everywhere else the congregations are winning big-time--witness the recent victories in VA as one example from the Episcopal side. The battle is the Lord's.

At least Kirk can get on with prospering and EOP can get on with dying.

Toby Brown said...

Jim,

Wesleyan???

No way, man! I agree with the Kirk member--start an EPC plant or CRC or something! The Reformed faith is what the world needs: The sovereignty of God in all things, the sure election of our salvation and a godly lifestyle of simplicity.

Get some people together and start praying for a new church. God will provide.

Jim said...

Toby,
What problems do you have with Wesleyan Denomination? I have look at their website on doctrine and governance and it seems to be close to EPC. My local church is large, with a christian school, and a large college.

To quote #2: "All we want is information." (oops! I am dating my self.)

Anonymous said...

Well now it looks like the PCUSA is trying to add additional conditions after the settlement has been reached. Now they say they won't sign off unless they get a final ruling that's favorable to them, thus strengthening the current legal precedent. Not only do they want the money, they also want a club to hold over other Oklahoma churches.

Toby Brown said...

Jim,

The Wesleyans do fine gospel preaching, but they are NOT Reformed. They believe in synergistic regeneration and reject unconditional election and they also think one can lose one's salvation.

Wesley was an Arminian in theology and his holiness preaching led to many of the movements that we see today causing havoc in doctrine and practice.

Now, the man Wesley was a WONDERFUL Christian man, make no mistake. Despite his errors, God used him in powerful ways. But the Wesleyan movement is just too far gone from our views on the sovereignty of God for a good fit to ever work between us.

See this site:

http://www.challies.com/archives/general-news/calvinism-vs-ar.php

God bless you in your journey!

Bill Crawford said...

Your wife is obviously brilliant. That is exactly what is at stake and I can't figure out why some churches don't just take the huge settlement money and throw it at lawyers....

Actually I do - they want to get on with worship, fellowship, discipleship, ministry, and mission. The ufortunately side effect is to really stick small congregations (unless they have unanimity and will like some that I know and cherish).

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PDF Legal Strategy #1PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave
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Doc PC(USA): Constitutional Musings: Note 12 Responding Pastorally to Troubled Churches
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Web Presbyterian Outlook Statement about resources prepared by the Constitutional Services Department and the Office of Legal Services at the General Assembly level of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
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United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. - UPCUSA(N) PUSA & UPCNA New York City8,909/2,342,4411958-1983
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LINKS

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News Crosswalk The Intersection of Faith and Life
News Church Report National business news magazine
NewsPC(USA) NewsPresbyterian Church (U.S.A.) News Service
NewsSave Hollywood PresLinks to news about PC(USA) Troubles
NewsThe Layman OnlineTHE News Source about PC(USA)
NewsLayman - propertyThe Layman - Property Issues Archive
Blog Reformed Pastor EPC Pastor - Church Planter
BlogFull Court PresbyPastor Lance's Blog to his Congregation about PUP etc.
BlogClassical PresbyterianBlogging for the Reformed Resistance in the PC(USA)
BlogAnderson SpeakCommentary on Faith, Christianity, and the PCUSA by Noel K. Anderson
BlogBayou Christian Bill Crawford, Pastor First Presbyterian Church of Thiboduax
Blogblog 137Pastor Dave Moody, Trinity United Presbyterian Church, Sparta, IL.
BlogTruth in Love NetworkA group of Presbyterian elders who are concerned with the direction of the PC(USA).
BlogMark D. RobertsProfessor & Senior Pastor of Irvine Presbyterian Church, CA
BlogInstitute on Religion and Democracy25 years of working to reform the social and political witness of American churches
Blog The Berkley Blog James D. Berkley, Director of Presbyterian Action
BlogTom's ThoughtsTom Gray, Co-Pastor, Kirk of the Hills, Tulsa, OK
WebStand to ReasonChristian Ambassadors for defense for classical Christianity
WebPresbyterian ForumWorking for reformation through overt political action
WebWiki:PresbyterianWikipedia's Presbyterian Overview
WebKirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OKChurch in Tulsa, OK - Fighting for its Property.
WebKirk's Legal Docs (pdfs)Kirk Of The Hills, Tulsa, OK
WebKirk Docs (text)Kirk Of The Hills docs, Converted to text
PDFLegal Strategy #1PC(USA)'s Legal Strategy for churches wanting to leave
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DocSecret Document #3News about a third secret document
PicPresby Chart 1Chart showing the history of breakups and mergers (standard)
WebPresby Chart 2Presbyterian Church History-Lesson 13-An Overview of Contemporary American Presbyterianism
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PDFBook of OrderOfficial PDF Copy of Book of Order for PC(USA)
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WebAdvisory OpinionsPC(USA) Stated Clerk Advisory Opinions (not binding, nor authoritative)
WebPC(USA) Constitutional MusingsOffice of Constitutional Services - Unofficial Thoughts
WebPC(USA) Amicus Curiae BriefsStated Clerk & AC on Litigation - Friend of the Court Briefs
WebGAPJC PC(USA)PC(USA) General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission Decisions
WebPension Board PC(USA)PC(USA) Board of Pensions
WebFoundation PC(USA)Presbyterian Foundation, New Covenant Trust and New Covenant Mutual Funds
WebPC(USA) BOO AnnotatedPC(USA) Book of Order - Annotated
WebPresbyterian CoalitionWorking for a Revitalized Church
WebConfessing Church Movement1,314/434,697
WebNew WineskinsNew Wineskins Association of Churches(2001)
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