Tuesday, September 30, 2008

EOP VICIOUSLY kicks Kirk while it is down!

Layman has details on the EOP settlement proposal: Okla. Presbytery wants Kirk to pay $2.4 million in rent
  • The church is approximately 100,000 sq. ft.
  • With a parking garage in a prime Tulsa location.
  • the facility is in excellent shape and completely furnished.
  • Using a Rental rate at $12 per square foot.
  • Which would be below the commercial rate in the area for Class A space
  • seeks to gain control of its financial assets when the suit was filed in 2006 ($52,218.09)
Other Info:
  • The presbytery also wants the Kirk to pay its legal costs. $500K?
  • The presbytery also wants Breach of Contract Damages $??
I will wept for EOP to return to the Lord's love and repent of the ways of man.

I beg Kirk to put all of the INFO on their website so the rest of EOP may judge its leaders and hold them accountable.

Presbytery of South Louisiana aggressive attack plan

Layman Story: Presbytery votes to wrest control of local churches that 'contemplate' leaving

Presbytery of South Louisiana NOTE: They protect most things behind a password. Only cowards and dictators hide their documents.

The Plan: "Policy on the Severance of Relations between a Particular Church and the Presbyterian Church (USA) including Disposition of Property,"

Monday, September 29, 2008

The Upside to Belonging to a Denomination.

PCA (Presbyterian Church of Australia) is in the news again. It has declared teachings Heretical at Trinity Presbyterian Church, Camberwell.
  • Accepting "feelings" as revelation from God equal to the Bible
  • Contact with non-Fellowship members leads to defilement
  • The Fellowship claims higher loyalty than members' families
  • Christians can be controlled by "generational curses" or evil spirits
  • God's forgiveness depends on confessing to other people
  • God's forgiveness depends on personal holiness.

The declaration, to be released today, vindicates the church in its decade-long battle to expel the cult, headed by stockbroker Bruce Teele, that dominates Trinity Presbyterian Church, Camberwell.

The commission instructs that these beliefs must not be taught in any congregation or by any Presbyterian office bearer, and its declaration must be read in every Presbyterian Church of Australia congregation by October 31.

News Article: Cult's teachings deemed heretical

FPC Tulsa to discuss the "Kirk Situation"?

From a Kirk Member:
I was just advised that Dr. Jim Miller , First Presbyterian Church has invited members of his congregation to a meeting in their chapel at 4:00 pm , September 28th and again at 12:15 on October 5th to openly discuss the "Kirk Situation" and its implications for the PSUSA

ED: I was unable to confirm this on FPC Tulsa website. Many people believe that FPC is the driving force in EOP to attack Kirk at all costs.

Presbyterian Global Fellowship

Fresno First Presbyterian mentions this group as a possible group to join if they leave PCUSA.

What is the Presbyterian Global Fellowship all about? By God’s grace and in the power of the Holy Spirit, our mission is to transform mainline congregations into missional communities following Jesus Christ. We are committed to a vision for missional renewal, to connecting congregations and leaders with one another and with the global church, to sharing ideas and resources worldwide, and to stewarding our material gifts in service of Christ's mission.

The formation of PGF in 2006 reflects several important trends. New technologies and creative partnerships make it possible for Christians to connect with one another in unprecedented ways, both within a certain region of the world and across the globe. We believe this new reality offers significant opportunities to join together in God’s mission, and as a fellowship we are committed to innovative networking and new patterns in building relationships and sharing resources.

Secondly, although our fellowship is open to individuals and congregations from across the Reformed tradition, the congregations who initiated PGF were responding to the crisis within the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). The PC(USA) has been mired in theological, moral and institutional crisis. PGF was formed to give congregations and individuals the opportunity to identify with a fellowship in which they can confess the Lordship of Jesus Christ with integrity, take full advantage of new forms of partnership, and get on with the mission of the church!

Finally, this need to “get on with the mission” is urgent, in the midst of major changes in Western culture. While the Gospel flourishes in many areas of the global South, the church in the “Western World” (i.e. Europe, North America, Australia) is struggling to engage the mission field in its own backyard. Most of our congregations are not used to having a “missionary stance” towards Western culture. And yet we believe that God has called us to be just such a missionary people. So, we formed this new missional fellowship, experiencing a fresh movement of the Holy Spirit, expanding beyond denominational patterns in the way that we express our theological vision and connect with one another and with the global church.

Friday, September 26, 2008

Why the Distrust? - Full Court Presby

Why the Distrust—An Answer to our General Assembly Moderator.

EOP kicks Kirk while it is down!

From the comment

The Kirk congregational meeting has been changed to 6:30 pm October 8 on advice from our attorneys. There is a hearing on October 6 and they feel it best to have the meeting after that so the congregation can have all the details before voting.

The Kirk is being given 2 options by EOP:

  • Buy the building and property for $1.75 million
  • Leave the building. There can be no appeal unless the members vote to leave.

There are strong arguments for both options, and I really don't know which way the vote will go. Pray for God to guide us in this matter.

A Kirk member

ED: I thought the EOP could go no lower! My shame of being a member of EOP has increased 10 fold.

The EOP has the full agreement on their website(PDF). EOP approved this unanimously on Sept 19. I did not see it on the agenda. This meeting is the least attended Presbytery due to the location and it being a weekend meeting. Sneaky!

Proposed Kirk of the Hills Settlement

Kirk info:

EOP responses to Kirk's Objections

Court Entry: Sept 25 2008 4:13PM: Deft Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery's Response & Objections Concerning Motion To Settle Journal Entry

Wednesday, September 24, 2008

Kirk Alternative Journal Entry, Request

From the Official Court Site:
Plaintiff's Combined:
  • Proposed Journal Entry Of Judgment
  • Objection To Defendant's Proposed Journal Entry
  • Request For Findings Of Fact And Conclusions Of Law

Also, a new Attorney for somebody, the clerk mangled the entry.

Green, Amanda Maxfield
SUITE 1800

Roseville and Fair Oaks

Back in the battle again for Roseville and Fair Oaks
However on Saturday, the Sacramento Presbytery of the PCUSA voted to request that an administrative commission be formed by the Synod of the Pacific. The petition read:
The Presbytery hereby petitions the Synod to appoint an administrative commission under G-9.02503, with the power to act on behalf of the Presbytery in all matters related to the Suits, including the Appeal and to provide or obtain funding in connection therewith.

Tuesday, September 23, 2008

First Reading of the Beaver-Butler Presbytery Declaration

UPDATE: Approved for second reading.

Merely Confessional Presbyterianism Blog:

News Stories:

Three CA churches concerned about PCUSA direction

Fresno Bee: Valley Presbyterian group may split
National rule on gay leadership threatens divide.

Ed: This subtitle does not match the article.

Ed: A short version of this story is all over via AP.

Total 1950 = 28%

Presbytery of San Joaquin

  • 32 congregations
  • 7,000 members
  • Fresno, Kern, Kings, Madera and Tulare counties.
The concern is that the national denomination is backing away from tenets that some believe are indisputably decreed by the Bible in favor of more vague guidelines. Evans doesn't think it's right that "they've reduced it to regions where it is a debatable issue." He said homosexuality "is a secondary issue."

University Presbyterian Church in Fresno, which has 350 regular attendees, wants to start a discussion about the "lightning-rod issue of sexual orientation," said the church's pastor, the Rev. Chris Erdman.

But some Presbyterian congregations in the Valley have already left the denomination over disagreements about the Bible and homosexuality.

Total left/leaving = 2350? 33%

Friday, September 19, 2008

Hearing continue to Oct 6, 2008


Wednesday, September 17, 2008

Kirk of the Hills Sets Congregation Meeting

Kirk Current Events

The Kirk and EOP continue to discuss options for the Kirk following the judge’s ruling against the Kirk on September 9th. The Kirk’s pastors, elders and trustees have met several times and expect to have a recommendation early next week for the congregation to consider.

The next information meeting will be held Wednesday, September 24th at 6:30 p.m. in the Sanctuary. Additional information meetings are scheduled for Monday, September 29th and Tuesday, September 30th at 7:00 p.m. in the Chapel.

There will be a Called Congregational Meeting on Wednesday, October 1st at 7:00 p.m. in the Sanctuary. Only members will be allowed to vote. Please arrive early to check-in and receive your ballot.

Joppa Church Corporation

Please make all future contributions to Joppa Church Corporation instead of the Kirk of the Hills. Joppa Church is a new non-profit organization that has been set up to receive contributions that are secure from the Presbytery. The address is 7107 S. Yale #279, Tulsa OK 74136

Presbytery maps plan to wrest control from sessions of churches 'contemplating' leaving PCUSA

Layman Story: Presbytery maps plan to wrest control from sessions of churches 'contemplating' leaving PCUSA

My title: Presbytery of Southern Louisiana - Pope of the South.

Monday, September 15, 2008

A blast from the past!

I was googling for something else, when I ran across this old 2001 story: Church leaders refute Presbyterian Layman charges. I had to laugh at how history has proved the Layman correct.

Kirk Speaks: "When you're in God's will, the best is always still ahead."

From a Tulsa World Story: Kirk of Hills congregation faithful about future
  • "They said they don't want to evict us, and they desire that we continue our ministry," Tim Trump said.
  • If the EOP takes over the property they will sell, there are interested buyers.
  • Presbytery statements that the church rebuffed efforts to negotiate a settlement over the last two years were untrue. "The truth is we made several earnest attempts to settle," Trump said.
  • If the church buys the building, there will be no appeals process, and no chance that the church will get the property back through a favorable court ruling.
  • The name of the church is considered part of the intangible value lost in the court case, but the presbytery has said they have no interest in the name, so the congregation could continue to use it.
  • An appeals process could take one to two years.
  • The church has about $1 million in debt, which will stay with the building.
  • All automatic bank draft donations and credit card giving to the Kirk of the Hills corporation have been suspended. A new corporation, Joppa, has been created for future giving to the church.

Ed: Every promise that the G.P. Rev. Greg Coulter makes is not his or the AC to decide it is up to the Presbytery!

Thursday, September 11, 2008

Kirk Calls for the Congregation to Decide Property.

Kirk of the Hills will hold Informational Meetings, 7:00 p.m. in the Chapel
  • Monday, September 15th
  • Tuesday, September 16th
  • Wednesday, September 17th

Tom & Wayne will answer your questions about the judge's decision and the options the Kirk has for the future. The possible options include:

  • Buying the property from EOP
  • Leasing the property from EOP
  • Obtaining a bond to stay the effect of the order pending appeal
  • Abandon the property to EOP
No decision has been made yet. The congregation will vote at an upcoming congregational meeting.

Editorial: On a side note: EOP has only voted once, to form an AC. They have never had a chance to voice their opinion about what to do about Kirk. There is nothing on the agenda for Sept 19&20 Presbytery Meeting (At Dwight Mission)

Tuesday, September 9, 2008

Synod of the Trinity PJC issues Stay on Beaver-Butler

Hands Tied: Synod of the Trinity PJC issues Stay on Beaver-Butler

From Classical Presbyterian

I just received the news that the Synod PJC will review Beaver-Butler Presbytery's recent vote to allow Chippewa United Presbyterian Church to depart to the EPC. Reasons given in this Stay of Enforcement apparently include the lack of a complete inventory of CUPC's posessions.

Yes, the AC in charge of the recommendation to the presbytery is actually being accused in this Stay of failing to take into account how many forks, pew Bibles and fine china pieces the church may have owned!

Judge rules in favor of EOP - Kirk WILL Appeal!

Judge Sellers ruled. Here is MY summary of the trial.

  • Judge had no questions for the two parties
  • Thank both parties for well written briefs.
  • Cimmaron court case is still in effect.
  • It has not been overturned, reversed in Okla.
  • Therefore Summary Motion for EOP is affirmed
  • And summary motion for Kirk is denied
  • If ruled on Hierarchical Principals - EOP/PCUSA wins
  • If ruled on Neutral Principals - ???? wins
    Presbyterian Outlook heard this as EOP wins?
    Can someone that was also there or has the transcript verify?
    The judge of course used legalize: Defendant/Plaintiff
  • Ruling delayed 20 days - for appeal, writing journal entry, and negotiations by each party
  • Kirk asked for court date if issues can not be resolved.

Impressions of the court case:

Kirk had about 70 people, 3 lawyers, Tom and Wayne were in the spectators seats.

EOP had 2 lawyers and PCUSA 1 lawyer and someone else. The Executive Presbytery was there along with 2 other people.

Court opened at 1:15, they had 5 pews of 8 people each and 5 chairs, there were 13 people standing, and 10 people waiting in the hall. They finally people sit in the Juror box and the extra side chairs by the EOP side. The Judge entered at 1:33 and concluded at about 1:50

Hearing set for Sept 18, 2008, 3:30pm for Supersedeas Bond and Settlement of Journal Entry.

A Supersedeas bond is a type of surety bond that a court requires from an appellant who wants to delay payment of a judgment until the appeal is over.

My independent legal counsel is very confident that Kirk will win on appeal. He thinks Judge Sellers, took the easy way out (90% of the judges would), and passed the buck to the appeals court.

I wish I knew what EOP offered to settle that Kirk turned down. My guess would be 10% of the property value plus back per-capita

Saturday, September 6, 2008

Beaver-Butler is asked to challenge Local Option.

Story from Classical Presbyterian Blog: Beaver-Butler Watchtower Report: Beaver-Butler is asked to challenge Local Option

UPDATED: PDF is up on PresbyWeb. I have placed as text below

UPDATED 2x Layman Story: Ministers want presbytery to declare status confessionis due to GA errors

UPDATED: Here is a blog to discuss the Declaration: Merely Confessional Presbyterianism

Once small quote from the Declaration:

We do not now and will no longer recognize ordinations that are constitutionally or biblically unsustainable. We will vigorously examine each candidate seeking admission to our Presbytery, especially from Presbyteries who cannot share this affirmation in good conscience.

A little background info from their website:

Beaver-Butler Presbytery at Zelienople PA

87 churches in the counties of Beaver and Butler in southwestern Pennsylvania.

Denominational Concerns Task Force Documents:

Wednesday, September 3, 2008

Victoria PC seeks dismissal from the Presbytery of the James

Layman Story: Virginia church seeks dismissal from the Presbytery of the James


  • Victoria PC (VA) - 29 members, no "minister"
  • Property: $350,000
  • One stop light town - no lawyer
  • Administrative Commission on Agenda for Sept 4 (Thur 4pm)
  • James offered to appoint an interim pastor for two year evaluation.
  • A retired Baptist minister has been doing the preaching for the last couple of months
  • Presbytery of the James
    • Called Meeting Packet(PDF)
    • 113 churches
    • 10 African-American congregations
    • 1 Korean congregation
    • 1 Arabic-speaking fellowship
    • 28,000 members
    • 240 ministers
    • 30 educators
    • Budget 2007: 1,716,327
  • Synod of the Mid-Atlantic

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Denomination NameParentLocationSizeYear
United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. - UPCUSA(N) PUSA & UPCNA New York City8,909/2,342,4411958-1983
Presbyterian Church in United States (Confederate) - PCUS(S) Presbyterian Church in United States Atlanta, Ga.4,250/814,9311861-1983
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) PC(U.S.A) UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) Louisville, Kentucky11,596/3,122,213June 10, 1983
Evangelical Presbyterian Church EPC UPCUSA(N) & PCUS(S) Livonia, MI67/19,000 (1982)1980/1981
Presbyterian Church of America PCA PCUS(S) Lawrenceville, GA260/41,232May 18, 1973
Orthodox Presbyterian Church Presbyterian U.S.A. Willow Grove, PA 300/20,417 1936
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church Associate Presbytery/Reformed Presbytery Greenville, SC 250/40,392 1782



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